Satanists excluded from new FL school chaplains law

[Altair]

Heh. Good luck with that, Ron!

'Not a religion': Florida Gov. DeSantis signs school chaplain bill, says Satanists not welcome
'That is not a religion,' the governor said. 'That is not qualifying to be able to participate in this.'

The lawsuit will be epic and, eventually, a no-brainer win for those deliciously provocative folks of the Satanic Temple. From the article (emphasis mine):

"The Satanic Temple, which the IRS recognizes as a tax-exempt church, told the USA TODAY NETWORK-Florida earlier in the year that it would put school chaplains in Florida if the bill became law."

That, and the fact that nitwit Ron has publicly singled them out as disfavored, should make this a slam-dunk for the Satanists; this is precisely why the First Amendment exists. It may take awhile, it may go all the way to the Supreme Court (it will be fun to watch the Christianists there squirm!), but Ron is going down.

[CoyoteFeathers]

Heh. Good luck with that, Ron!

'Not a religion': Florida Gov. DeSantis signs school chaplain bill, says Satanists not welcome
'That is not a religion,' the governor said. 'That is not qualifying to be able to participate in this.'

I'm not so confident in some of the courts on this, especially the Florida courts and our stacked SCOTUS right now. I worry that there may be a reassessment of what makes something a "religion" or at least one deserving of legal recognition. I think a case could be made that TST is an activist organization and not a religion- because it was founded to fight against Christian nationalism.

Do I agree with that? Not necessarily. It was founded to fight Christian nationalism but that wouldn't have happened if not for sincerely held beliefs listed in TST's tenets.

But I do worry that such a case could be made and argued successfully in our current atmosphere and because the definition of "religion" known and used by the average American is so narrow. So, if a court decides that TST is not deserving of IRS tax exempt status that could set other non-theistic movements to be removed too, like the UU church which similarly doesn't have set spiritual beliefs but is a gathering of people with similar values and missions.

I truly hope this turns out with the Temple of Satan winning. There's 100% grounds for a case. I just worry about how it will be decided.

[Castus]

Heh. Good luck with that, Ron!

'Not a religion': Florida Gov. DeSantis signs school chaplain bill, says Satanists not welcome
'That is not a religion,' the governor said. 'That is not qualifying to be able to participate in this.'

The lawsuit will be epic and, eventually, a no-brainer win for those deliciously provocative folks of the Satanic Temple. From the article (emphasis mine):

"The Satanic Temple, which the IRS recognizes as a tax-exempt church, told the USA TODAY NETWORK-Florida earlier in the year that it would put school chaplains in Florida if the bill became law."

That, and the fact that nitwit Ron has publicly singled them out as disfavored, should make this a slam-dunk for the Satanists; this is precisely why the First Amendment exists. It may take awhile, it may go all the way to the Supreme Court (it will be fun to watch the Christianists there squirm!), but Ron is going down.

I’m torn.

On the one hand, good! The Satanic Temple can go fuck itself — a vast collective of edgy atheist smoothbrains who exist to shock, provoke, and denigrate. I could not in my wildest dreams imagine a ‘religion’ which more richly deserves government hostility. If I was a Florida parent I wouldn’t want TST’s sorry excuse for chaplains within a country mile of my children; I shudder to think of vulnerable students being ministered to by an atheistic Satanist when they find themselves in times of trouble. I’m not typically a stalwart fan of DeSantis but in this instance I could hardly agree with him more.

On the other hand, maybe not so good. As Altair points out TST is indeed a religion according to the Internal Revenue Service, which is, hilariously, the government body which makes such determinations. The IRS’ definition of what constitutes a religion is famously broad, and while I would fall out of my seat in happiness if the Temple had its tax-exempt status yanked I still worry that such a thing might befall groups which are less deserving — the Unitarian Universalists, the Secular Humanistic Jews, etc etc. I’m sceptical that such a thing would happen given that those groups rarely provoke anyone, unlike the raison d’etre of TST, but I’m unsure that I’d like the precedent to be set in any case. Allowing states to overrule IRS determinations in re religious groups would be dicey indeed.

But again, if it has to happen to anyone, all for the better that it’s happening to The Satanic Temple. I’ll be watching the case that will surely arise with great interest.

[atr]

I’m torn.

On the one hand, good! The Satanic Temple can go fuck itself — a vast collective of edgy atheist smoothbrains who exist to shock, provoke, and denigrate. I could not in my wildest dreams imagine a ‘religion’ which more richly deserves government hostility. If I was a Florida parent I wouldn’t want TST’s sorry excuse for chaplains within a country mile of my children; I shudder to think of vulnerable students being ministered to by an atheistic Satanist when they find themselves in times of trouble. I’m not typically a stalwart fan of DeSantis but in this instance I could hardly agree with him more.

On the other hand, maybe not so good. As Altair points out TST is indeed a religion according to the Internal Revenue Service, which is, hilariously, the government body which makes such determinations. The IRS’ definition of what constitutes a religion is famously broad, and while I would fall out of my seat in happiness if the Temple had its tax-exempt status yanked I still worry that such a thing might befall groups which are less deserving — the Unitarian Universalists, the Secular Humanistic Jews, etc etc. I’m sceptical that such a thing would happen given that those groups rarely provoke anyone, unlike the raison d’etre of TST, but I’m unsure that I’d like the precedent to be set in any case. Allowing states to overrule IRS determinations in re religious groups would be dicey indeed.

But again, if it has to happen to anyone, all for the better that it’s happening to The Satanic Temple. I’ll be watching the case that will surely arise with great interest.

I concur

I really dislike like TST. I personally find them to be extremely off-putting, and they have a long history of lots of barking but no biting (see - Sober Faction, the After School Satan clubs that ended up mismanaged and closed after they won court cases, etc.). Their legal track record is also rather mixed, to be honest.

That's because while TST does indeed fight the good fight, the problem is that if they win, they're not usually prepared to actually implement / do anything about it. They're like a dog chasing a car - they don't know what to do when they catch it! And if they lose (which is more often than you'd think), well their loss is basically lost to the ether, and ignored in lieu of the next legal or PR battle. That's because they're not actually serious about these things. They are an organization that primarily exists to say "nope", and they really don't have much more to offer than that. In my opinion, this is the central issue with the TST that makes their social recognition as a religion problematic - there is no "yes" here, only "nope". They only take action to stop things, not to promote things.

For instance - you'd think the TST might try to promote marriage equality by sponsoring a local pride day parade, or by publicly participating in some other advocacy like literally every other religion does. But they don't do that - rather, they usually wait until a politician tries to make something illegal or does something stupid, and then they fight against it. They are almost 100% reactionary.

Legally speaking, they're a great example of what I would call a "legally minimum religious organization". On one hand, this is a pretty important distinction, as someone needs to be that "legally minimum religion". That framework MUST exist in order to ensure that freedom of religion can exist in this country. On the other, I really, really wish that it wasn't TST. But it is what it is.

Thus, while I don't think they should lose their status as a recognized religion, I generally don't associate with them. If one of my friends or family members advocates for them, I usually just nod my head and move on.

Thankfully, TST members / advocates tend to be relatively sane, nice people. And I usually (though, not always) agree with them politically / socially, so no hate on them. I'm just not real big on the organization.

If I was a Florida parent I wouldn’t want TST’s sorry excuse for chaplains within a country mile of my children; I shudder to think of vulnerable students being ministered to by an atheistic Satanist when they find themselves in times of trouble.

I 100% agree here.

That being said...

Where are the imams? The rabbis? The Wiccan priests/priestess? The bhuddist monks?

Where are the other religions?

Why aren't they coming out and saying that they support / not support this law? Why wouldn't they take advantage of this?

Why is TST standing alone here?

These are significantly larger organizations / religions than TST. Are they seriously going to allow evangelical Christians (and, presumably, TST) have a monopoly on the Florida school system without a fight?

Or maybe they saw TST stepping in, and they collectively chose to take a step back and watch how it plays out?

I honestly have no idea what to make of the lack of any kind of religious pushback OR advocacy (outside of Evangelical Christianity). I find it really odd that most other religious authorities have decided to either be neutral or otherwise be very quiet about this situation. Of course, to be fair... unlike TST, they weren't specifically founded to be activist organizations, so maybe I'm looking too much in to this.