Necromancy. It's not Evil

[Marukai]

In Roman times, those who were caught practicing Necromancy or infringed on the sacred precincts reserved for the dead; they would often be legally 'given up' by the courts and handed over to whatever justice it pleased the Gods to mete out .

People don't like it when you disturb the sleep/afterlife of their beloved dead. No one likes the idea of Grandma being wrenched from her pleasant afterlife to answer the question of some skeevy dude in a basement. It is that more than anything else which upsets people about necromancy; perhaps wrongly, perhaps not. And, speaking as someone with years of experience with Spirit Keeping, using it to justify your own apparent inability to reason is foolish, nonsensical, and probably a tad insulting to your Djinn.

I. An Introduction to Roman Religion, by John Scheid, Janet Lloyd (Trans.)

 
Why would you even think that it would be insulting to my Marid? Are you a spirit keeper as well? Do you have Ifrits or Faeries? None of my spirits are insulted by my questions about Necromancy.

[Marukai]

Yes, "necromancy" originally referred to divination by summoning/communing with spirits of the dead. It's seldom looked upon with much favor. It's one of the reasons John Dee partnering with Edward Kelley wasn't particularly popular.

The whole John Dee thing and the Enochian Magick is BS. John Dee used it in an attempt to contact Angelic beings to help him find treasure. He should have consulted a Djinn if he wanted treasure....:p Things like the Ars Goetia and the  Pseudomonarchia Daemonum are much older than John Dees so called Magick, so therefore I feel they are more legitimate. The  Pseudomonarchia Daemonum is written in Latin, which makes it that much more sacred.
 

But your point about Necromancy is correct... Divination..

[woodhick]

I just saw the new Hobbit movie which has a wicked Necromancer. I don't understand why so many games and movies portray Necromancy as evil and a dark art. After my thorough research... Necromancy can be used to summon the diseased for divinatory purposes, however it becomes dark when the sorcerer uses Necromancy to control and enslave the dead in an unwilling manner,thus giving the Witch, or Sorcerer the power to use the dead in the most ruthless and wicked manner.

 
I think to answer your question, I would have to say society. Many things have developed a different meaning in today's society that than they did years ago. (take a faggot, not many people know now that it actually means dried cattle dung used for fuel). It doesn't matter what your beliefs are, if the majority of society thinks of it as evil, then that's going to be the general consensus.

Personally, I can't see anything that prohibits the spirit from getting on its next wheel is good, no matter what reason it is being done.

[Marukai]

You and me both - I've been watching this to see if they could come up with something other than Wiki and a grimoire written in the 17th century - I have read a copy of the Ars and it's so full of holes and counter-arguments that you can come up with quite a bit of things very different depending on which sections you read

My personal opinion

Necromancy is manipulative magic.
Spirit entrapment is dangerous.

Sure the actual Goetia segment translated by Aleister Crowly is full of holes. I have both the Goetia and the Lesser Key of Solomon books. The Lesser Key is the book that you want. It contains Theurgical evocations and names of Theurgical spirits. It also contains the 72 Demons.

[Marukai]

Arrogance breeds contempt. Respect goes a long way.

Some of what I know comes from non-traditional sources, and I don't refer to it as 'thoroughly researching.' (It's also why I don't post much in philosophy section to begin with). I think many people would be in this boat with me as well here, so when you say 'thoroughly researched' and you mean a upg or oral traditions, you may want to state it as such. Otherwise, we're going to request sources so we can look into your claims ourselves and potentially read into it further if it piques some interest.

But the more I read your posts, and see your tone, the more I have to wonder where you're coming from, what your motivations are for saying certain things, and what kind of things you've been reading/hearing/whatever. It's easier to understand another person if you can understand where they've come from. Friendly nudge to maybe rethink some of your statements and the way you phrase things before making black and white claims about certain things that many people would consider controversial to begin with.

And for the actual topic, necromancy as a means of divination... I find extremely disturbing. Not because of the act, not because of the intent, but because of the fact that the process intrudes upon an individual's privacy and right to autonomy- even if they have passed.

Necromancy as a means of controlling the dead, raising zombies, starting apocalypses, and entering the Simpson's Halloween specials... well that's just going further into the extreme of my original point..

Truth be told, if some arrogant kid walked up to the grave of one of my loved ones and tried to raise them, that kid would be answering to me. And I can be a royal pain in the backside.

Not even going to touch upon the demonology, not my cup of tea and never will be. But I didn't get onto the forum until pretty late into this thread so I figured I'd drop in my 2 cents.

 
Why would you even say that I'm being arrogant? I simply posted a thread about the wicked ruthless Necromancer in the Hobbit. I find it funny that Sarumun simply dismisses the fact that there's a evil Necromancer in the abandon Fortress. He states that it's nothing but some phoney baloney mortal dabbling in dark arts:D:

[Jabberwocky]

I keep various spirits that are bounded to stones.

How, specifically are you defining spirits?

One is a Djinn and a few are Faeries.

What precisely does that have to do with necromancy?  I know that some of the origin myths for the wee folk do have them as the spirits of the dead; if that's your view which mythology do you work with?  The Djinn?  No connection there at all, at least to the best of my knowledge.

I'm also interested to hear where you're getting spells to bind the wee folk (specifically) from.  And why you feel that you can definitely trust the authors.

My Djinn is 15,018 years old. He always speaks to me and answers various things about other supernatural entities.

The thought that you maybe shouldn't take everything otherworldly entities tell you at face value doesn't seem to have occurred to you.  That's sweetly trusting.

[Marukai]

How, specifically are you defining spirits?



What precisely does that have to do with necromancy?  I know that some of the origin myths for the wee folk do have them as the spirits of the dead; if that's your view which mythology do you work with?  The Djinn?  No connection there at all, at least to the best of my knowledge.

I'm also interested to hear where you're getting spells to bind the wee folk (specifically) from.  And why you feel that you can definitely trust the authors.


The thought that you maybe shouldn't take everything otherworldly entities tell you at face value doesn't seem to have occurred to you.  That's sweetly trusting.

 
I personally don't bind any of these supernatural beings. The Djinn for example are binded by a few Magi in the Middle East. It is a very secretive practice that is passed down through family members. It is not open to outsiders. The binding of Djinn is very dangerous and everything during the ritual has to me exact. The Magi can die if something goes wrong.

I get my vessels from Witches that sell them on Ebay or at a Festival. My Marid is from a Yule gathering from last year. A Witch sold him to me. I have obtained my Faeries from http://www.creepyhollows.com

[Emma Eldritch]

The whole John Dee thing and the Enochian Magick is BS. John Dee used it in an attempt to contact Angelic beings to help him find treasure. He should have consulted a Djinn if he wanted treasure....:p Things like the Ars Goetia and the  Pseudomonarchia Daemonum are much older than John Dees so called Magick, so therefore I feel they are more legitimate. The  Pseudomonarchia Daemonum is written in Latin, which makes it that much more sacred.
 

 
Whoa, whoa, hold up. Enochian magick is used by plenty of people with good results, so I wouldn't label it as BS. It's not my personal cup of tea, but I read DuQuette's experiments with it with great interest. It seems to work just fine for some people, so dismissing it just because it's not as old as some other stuff is kinda close minded.

I find it odd that you're dismissing people's very valid points on the topic, btw, or not responding to certain questions. A lot of the people on this board are very well educated and have been practising for years, but instead of engaging with them you keep going, "read this old book!" and not demonstrating actual knowledge. That may be why you're getting a lot of defensive or sarcastic replies. If you actually want to discuss necromancy or goetic magic maybe you should consider adopting a different tone...? Just a thought.

[Marukai]

Whoa, whoa, hold up. Enochian magick is used by plenty of people with good results, so I wouldn't label it as BS. It's not my personal cup of tea, but I read DuQuette's experiments with it with great interest. It seems to work just fine for some people, so dismissing it just because it's not as old as some other stuff is kinda close minded.

I find it odd that you're dismissing people's very valid points on the topic, btw, or not responding to certain questions. A lot of the people on this board are very well educated and have been practising for years, but instead of engaging with them you keep going, "read this old book!" and not demonstrating actual knowledge. That may be why you're getting a lot of defensive or sarcastic replies. If you actually want to discuss necromancy or goetic magic maybe you should consider adopting a different tone...? Just a thought.

 
The reason why I dismiss John Dee is because other forums have discussed him in great detail. http://www.witchforum.net has several threads about John Dee using this so called Enochian Magick for the sole purpose to find treasure.

[Emma Eldritch]

The reason why I dismiss John Dee is because other forums have discussed him in great detail. http://www.witchforum.net has several threads about John Dee using this so called Enochian Magick for the sole purpose to find treasure.

 
You dismiss an entire branch of magic because of what some other people on the internet say? Dude, come on. If we're going to be that silly, I may as well tell you to go watch Dr. Dee: The Opera! ...actually, that might be more educational.

[Valentine]

The  Pseudomonarchia Daemonum is written in Latin, which makes it that much more sacred.

 
http://io9.com/5929627/the-graffiti-of-pompeii-was-downright-raunchy-and-absolutely-hilarious
And then I giggled to death.

[Marukai]

You dismiss an entire branch of magic because of what some other people on the internet say? Dude, come on. If we're going to be that silly, I may as well tell you to go watch Dr. Dee: The Opera! ...actually, that might be more educational.

 Well Witch Forum is a very reputable forum it is featured on Witchvox.... I dismiss it because it deals with Christianity. This is very controversial because the Bible states that Sorcerers should be killed and that Witchcraft is Demonic. I steer clear of Christianity. I am an unbeliever, thus giving me the power to do my own bidding. Unbelieving Witches are the most powerful because they don't beleive in a God, thus allowing them to use wicked magick without fearing the wrath of so called Gods

[Emma Eldritch]

Well Witch Forum is a very reputable forum it is featured on Witchvox.... I dismiss it because it deals with Christianity. This is very controversial because the Bible states that Sorcerers should be killed and that Witchcraft is Demonic. I steer clear of Christianity. I am an unbeliever, thus giving me the power to do my own bidding. Unbelieving Witches are the most powerful because they don't beleive in a God, thus allowing them to use wicked magick without fearing the wrath of so called Gods

 
You're killing me, kiddo.


Valentine, you're killing me in the GOOD way.

[Valentine]

Unbelieving Witches are the most powerful because they don't beleive in a God, thus allowing them to use wicked magick without fearing the wrath of so called Gods

 
This is going to go really well for you.
Would you be willing to let people within the relevant blast radius know they might need to be moving house?

[Dark Midnight]

You're killing me, kiddo.


Valentine, you're killing me in the GOOD way.

 
I am so there with you! I think that my brain is melting......