Author Topic: What path of paganism should I follow? (Read 4827 times)

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #30 on:** April 29, 2016, 07:22:44 am »

Quote from: M. Schlottman;190538

I understand the basic relationship that Denmark was the leader in a union over Norway and Sweden, but they eventually became independent.

Yes. That was in the Middle Ages. Norway entered a union with Denmark in 1380, and Sweden entered it in 1397. When Sweden (with Finland) left the Nordic Union in 1523, Norway remained.

During the complicated Napoleonic Wars in the early 19th century, Denmark fought on the side of Napoleonic France, while Sweden fought on the side of the British Empire. Russia fought against both Napoleonic France and Sweden. Sweden lost Finland to Russia, but was allowed by the victorious nations, to invade Norway, and demand a union.

The crown union of Sweden and Norway was unhappy, among other things because of trade issues. In the 19th century, Sweden had its main market for export in Germany, while Norway had its main market for export in UK, but the politicians in Stockholm wasn't able to really understand this difference. While the two kingdoms shared one monarch and one diplomatic corps in common, both countries retained their own two separate Constitutions and Codes of Law. Norway began the evolution towards full parliamentary democracy much earlier than Sweden. In 1905 the Union split apart in a peaceful way, and Norway became fully independent.

Since the 1950s, the Nordic countries talk to each other, and co-operate, within the Nordic Council: Every member remain independent, but it is a good way to solve mutual problems.

Quote from: M. Schlottman;190538

Anyway, my Finnish friend had some resentment over his neighbor countries because of the long rule of Sweden and the threat of Russia.

Yes, that is very widespread and common in Finland. Swedes, Finns and Sami have lived in Finland since at least the Iron Age, long before Finland became a political unit (and Finnish and Sami are protected minority languages in Sweden), but a shared language doesn't mean that the two countries ought to remain one political unit. I believe that the Russian epoch was worse for Finland than the Swedish one. I am happy for their independence since 1917.

Quote from: M. Schlottman;190538

I think Sweden also included Estonia/South East Baltic at one point. Honestly, the Nords seem so similar to me- the Finnish and Estonian anthems even have the same tune.

Estonia and parts of Latvia, yes, and so was some parts of the northern coast of Germany. I am glad that those days are long gone. Most Swedes, if they are aware of these things, are rather embarrassed of these chapters of our history. Warfare is bad. Sweden has not been embroiled in war since 1816. It is the second centennial this year.

Noctua · « **Reply #31 on:** April 29, 2016, 08:36:49 am »

Quote from: Jack;190550

My experience has been that one's capacity for learning about herbs, tea and plant lore in general is not actually derived from one's gender.

Adding to this, most of the garden writers I've read come from both genders. The "celebrity" gardeners, the ones you're most likely to see on TV, tend to be men. Plants don't care about your gender, so if you're even remotely interested in them don't let that put you off. Most kitchen herbs thrive very well in pots sitting by a sunny window in your kitchen.

M. Schlottman · « **Reply #32 on:** April 29, 2016, 08:57:57 pm »

Quote from: Jack;190550

Uncle Iroh is the first person I think of when I think of tea!

My experience has been that one's capacity for learning about herbs, tea and plant lore in general is not actually derived from one's gender. What leads you to feel that it is?

You're right, I definitely have had too much of a bias against working with herbs. I have never thought of myself as a natural person, but maybe it would be a good balance. I have looked into Bushido before and I found that one of their main teachings was self-control. So I know they took up many artistic interests they exhibited control as with bonsai. I think this particular part of their philosophy came from Zen Buddhism. Similarly, tea is a symbol of delicacy and being refined.

Perhaps to be a more well-rounded person I should investigate further into that. I believe that plant lore and especially tea plays an important role.

On a side note- I am glad that you brought up Iroh, because I am now reminded of Zen and Confucianism. My favorite part of Zen Buddhism is the concept of satori(enlightenment) coming from existential achievement from a life of action rather than intellectual experience. I think there is a balance between erudition, application of knowledge, self-seeking, and finding one's place in a community. I have little trust in the world as I perceive it and I think many angles, including within oneself, is key. That moves into Confucianism and the importance of relationships along with the importance of one's actions. Confucius advocated respect and duty, but also the virtue of the Junzi and meritocracy over blood.

CottageWitch · « **Reply #33 on:** April 29, 2016, 09:36:41 pm »

Quote from: HarpingHawke;190442

Magic can be practiced in a secular manner.

As far as I know, Green Witchcraft has its roots in older practice, but as a whole has been adapted for the present. Also: there's a lot more than one "old way."

Except...that wasn't really mentioned?

That seems like a bit of an overgeneralization to me. Also, since this is in quotes and I can't figure any other reason for this to be the case, did you get that phrase from somewhere?

I get where you're coming from, but not every pagan honors "mother earth," nor does every pagan feel the need to connect that way. The earth-honoring thing is actually path-specific as far as I'm aware.

How do you know that? I'm genuinely curious, because unless my tired self missed something in OP's posts, they didn't mention that specifically. But, instead of just assuming, OP, are you interested in that?

I was trying to come at this conversation from a different perspective. I don't know how many people grow their own food or eat organic products. They were more simple times for the common person, but most prefer high sugar and GMO fed chicken in the modern day. So, I raised the question as to if it was the way people lived 100+ years ago that he may be attracted to, rather then the philosophy in general. I am talking about the way the average Joe lived back then.

The question is "what path should I take?" Obviously some people practice Witchcraft religiously, there are regular Witches, and then there are Wiccans which is a religion. Along with the many traditions that branch off from each. Whats trending right now is regular Witchcraft or eclectic Witchcraft. 15 years ago Wicca was trending, right now Witchcraft is which unlike the rest is highly individualized. The emphases is what works, not religious structure. It works for some, dosent work for others.

Not to mention in today's world we are destroying the planet and ocean die offs are to come, and much is going to change when Mother Earth, yes Mother Earth, puts her foot down. For those that can't see that coming, I question that. "Modern life" is not working at all, at all. With that said, is he drawn to more healthy times in human history?? To nature?? Or is he drawn to more dogma, which then Wicca or religious Witchcraft may give enough structure for his needs. No hate, just saying it works for some, doesn't work for others.

Darkhawk · « **Reply #34 on:** April 30, 2016, 01:07:57 am »

Quote from: CottageWitch;190568

The question is "what path should I take?" Obviously some people practice Witchcraft religiously, there are regular Witches, and then there are Wiccans which is a religion. Along with the many traditions that branch off from each. Whats trending right now is regular Witchcraft or eclectic Witchcraft. 15 years ago Wicca was trending, right now Witchcraft is which unlike the rest is highly individualized. The emphases is what works, not religious structure. It works for some, dosent work for others.

Why assume the OP has any interest in witchcraft at all?

HarpingHawke · « **Reply #35 on:** April 30, 2016, 01:13:59 am »

Quote from: CottageWitch;190568

I was trying to come at this conversation from a different perspective.

That's always appreciated!

Quote

I don't know how many people grow their own food or eat organic products. They were more simple times for the common person, but most prefer high sugar and GMO fed chicken in the modern day. So, I raised the question as to if it was the way people lived 100+ years ago that he may be attracted to, rather then the philosophy in general. I am talking about the way the average Joe lived back then.

We-ell, that's still kind of a generalization, though, isn't it? Not everybody lived the same way, ate the same kind of food, or had the same amount of medical advancement. It also depends on how far back you go.

Quote

The question is "what path should I take?" Obviously some people practice Witchcraft religiously, there are regular Witches, and then there are Wiccans which is a religion. Along with the many traditions that branch off from each.

And there are traditions that have very little/nothing to do with witchcraft as well.

Quote

Whats trending right now is regular Witchcraft or eclectic Witchcraft. 15 years ago Wicca was trending, right now Witchcraft is which unlike the rest is highly individualized.

Do you mind giving me a source as to where you found that? Because in the circles I run in, practical reconstructionism is "trending." If it's something you've observed independently, your findings might be biased toward your "group" of pagans.

Quote

The emphases is what works, not religious structure. It works for some, dosent work for others.

I'm not sure this was ever in dispute, but I'm glad you made that point!

Quote

Not to mention in today's world we are destroying the planet and ocean die offs are to come, and much is going to change when Mother Earth, yes Mother Earth, puts her foot down. For those that can't see that coming, I question that. "Modern life" is not working at all, at all. With that said, is he drawn to more healthy times in human history?? To nature??

I mean, way back when, more people died young from easily preventable diseases, women had less agency if any at all, and psychiatric care was either nonexistent or it sucked. There are definitely things *wrong* nowadays, but I don't see how modern life isn't working "at all."

Quote

Or is he drawn to more dogma, which then Wicca or religious Witchcraft may give enough structure for his needs. No hate, just saying it works for some, doesn't work for others.

Again - those aren't the only paths, and not everything branches off from those.

AineLlewellyn · « **Reply #36 on:** April 30, 2016, 05:05:22 am »

Quote from: CottageWitch;190568

I was trying to come at this conversation from a different perspective. I don't know how many people grow their own food or eat organic products. They were more simple times for the common person, but most prefer high sugar and GMO fed chicken in the modern day. So, I raised the question as to if it was the way people lived 100+ years ago that he may be attracted to, rather then the philosophy in general. I am talking about the way the average Joe lived back then.

Average Joe's where, though? I agree that the high amount of sugar in our diets isn't a good thing, especially as nutritional science is a horrendously tricky field that, in the US, has been plagued with problems.

However...GMO means 'genetically modified organism'. ANY chicken you eat is a GMO. That's what domestication is. Any corn you eat? GMO. Even if it's organic and labels itself as non-GMO or whatever. I think there are lots of problems with companies like Monsanto who patent seeds and life and produce both seeds and pesticides. However. I think fear of GMOs themselves is not based in good understanding of science and food, in general.

Quote from: CottageWitch;190568

Not to mention in today's world we are destroying the planet and ocean die offs are to come, and much is going to change when Mother Earth, yes Mother Earth, puts her foot down. For those that can't see that coming, I question that. "Modern life" is not working at all, at all. With that said, is he drawn to more healthy times in human history?? To nature?? Or is he drawn to more dogma, which then Wicca or religious Witchcraft may give enough structure for his needs. No hate, just saying it works for some, doesn't work for others.

Personally, I view the Earth as a planet that does not have a personality. I don't think she's going to 'put her foot down'. What if in our modern life we weren't causing global climate change or huge habitat destruction, deforestation and killing more species than we know? Would she still 'put her foot down', or...is it that we, as a species, have not be cognizant or attentive to the changes we are making to our planet (our habitat) and have forces working against any positive change?

I also question 'more healthy times'. When would that be? People dying during childbirth? People dying of diseases we now vaccinate against? The HPV vaccine is a wonderful recent vaccine. I don't mean to be harsh, but it isn't accurate to label earlier decades or centuries as 'healthier' or 'simpler'. They were different.

Personally, I find a magical *or* religious practice that ignores this current world and idealizes the past to be impractical. I like something that provides guidance and use for the world I'm living in right now.

Anisaer · « **Reply #37 on:** April 30, 2016, 02:19:48 pm »

Quote from: M. Schlottman;190435

To clarify- I really enjoy history and a major part of this is understanding where I come from. I meant to imply that I want to understand the genuine holidays and practices. Maybe I would not celebrate in the same way, but I would like to find festivities meaningful to me because it intends to relate to what my ancestors would have done. To me it is about recognizing the importance of past wisdom (I once found myself in the trap of renaissance logical positivism and disdain for former/outdated values).
...

We talked for about an hour and my main question was how I could find more about paganism that was not so much in believing the deities exist nor led me to the Nazis that use it for their own purposes. I do find myself able to make stronger connections to the mythology than a base understanding of something as one would do with engineering or math. During my research into this, I have assuaged a cultural desire or appetite if you will. I feel that I am reaching higher up Maslow's Hierarchy when I feel genuine self-fulfillment that I cannot get outside of history or making cultural connections to people (same for understanding others cultures and beliefs- I converse with Mormons, Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists, etc.).

I have read more on paganism and I have watched some YouTube videos of people who identify as secular pagans. The reason why I am so interested in paganism is because I believe I have found something that matches my beliefs rather than trying to force myself into a belief. The best that I can make how I feel comprehensible is that I have yearning to explore deeper into both my family history and European history (please do not think that I discard the products of Asia, Africa, or the native Americans) and I receive positive self-fulfillment from it. This is very much a personal endeavor for me as a continuation of my journey. The closest I could relate this to is romantic nationalism which I think has stirred a different image in this thread than what I think of: Herder, Hegel, Goethe, brothers Grimm, Beowulf, Hawthorne, Caspar Friedrich, Delacroix are ones that come to mind from the books I have read and art (mostly 19th century). I have also grown my passion for paganism in particular from reading an article on the Art of Manliness connecting Odin to the contemporary man along with what I have read elsewhere online to further my understanding. The story of how Odin lost his eye (seeing the world) in the pursuit of wisdom (otherworldly sight) has struck me especially and so have the other stories of paganism.

Anything about what I can read more for secular paganism (growing my knowledge and connections without belief in the intervention of deities or magic) would be greatly appreciated- I have found it difficult to find what I am looking for and thus is the reason why the bookstore owner pointed me in the direction of ecauldron. I don't mind spending more time and effort researching this- that is actually what I am asking for as I have enjoyed learning about what I have already found. If I continue in this direction, I may consider furthering my research in college and finding a way to work under a professor. Literature on various European pagans or introduction to the mythology helps(again I identify mostly German, because that is where a majority of my family comes from, although I am a quarter French and I love Ireland which would make any Celtic information interesting- not to mention my family practically were the foundation of the American colonies). In any case I have exhausted the works of most political and economic thought so a further expansion into ancient Europe and understanding pagan belief could not hurt. But I do feel that what I have seen through a friend of mine who is pagan does fit what I already believe- otherwise I would not be so concerned with finding more. The main difference that I have with her is that she is more natural in spirituality and I have the stronger passion for history with much erudition, although she also does not believe in divine beings.

I do find that it is the meaning that I give historical figures that makes them so real to me and that is why I feel that I connect to paganism.

If understanding and relating to the archetypes of mythology for the purposes of self-betterment is your goal, then consider the works of Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung. Campbell focuses more on how mythology relates to human development, so he won't take you in depth into any one tradition, but may provide you with a road map for integrating mythology into your daily life.

For more in depth reading into various traditions, look for reconstructionist groups and check out their reading lists. They often compile fantastic, lengthy lists of foundational lore and reliable sources.

M. Schlottman · « **Reply #38 on:** April 30, 2016, 04:53:36 pm »

Quote from: Anisaer;190590

If understanding and relating to the archetypes of mythology for the purposes of self-betterment is your goal, then consider the works of Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung. Campbell focuses more on how mythology relates to human development, so he won't take you in depth into any one tradition, but may provide you with a road map for integrating mythology into your daily life.

For more in depth reading into various traditions, look for reconstructionist groups and check out their reading lists. They often compile fantastic, lengthy lists of foundational lore and reliable sources.

This helps for narrowing down what I should look into. Maybe I should look into more to get started and get away from Wikipedia. I think right now I am looking into Norse/Germanic so I will see what I can find for that.

M. Schlottman · « **Reply #39 on:** April 30, 2016, 09:53:18 pm »

Quote from: Anisaer;190590

If understanding and relating to the archetypes of mythology for the purposes of self-betterment is your goal, then consider the works of Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung. Campbell focuses more on how mythology relates to human development, so he won't take you in depth into any one tradition, but may provide you with a road map for integrating mythology into your daily life.

I have been eyeing Jung's books for a while now so maybe I'll pick one up. I have spent quite a while now researching more into both combinations of science with myth and areas for reconstructionists. With Jung alone I found that I am more interested in ways to combine science with more metaphysical thought- Psychology and Alchemy, Synchronicity seem to be down that alley. I have always tried to learn more about physics and mechanics, such as quantum mechanics and string theory, and I have found there is always something greater behind them; it's almost absurd. So I will continue to look more into alchemy and other eccentric sciences with matter, the elements and forces.

Quote from: Anisaer;190590

For more in depth reading into various traditions, look for reconstructionist groups and check out their reading lists. They often compile fantastic, lengthy lists of foundational lore and reliable sources.

I have found an affinity for Asatru and Heathenry, Religio Romana, and Wicca has actually grown on me, although I waver on what I think of Wicca. Roman has interested me, because I already know more about its political background and the combination of Etruscan and Greek influences. Out of them Asatru is the most interesting, but even just in that area there is so much. So I will research Asatru more directly for now and be more passive about the rest.

cletus90851 · « **Reply #40 on:** May 03, 2016, 01:26:00 am »

Quote from: M. Schlottman;190378

Background-
I am 17 and I live in Texas, but I have had strong love for history. I come from an Anglican family, but I never felt religious so I have considered myself an atheist for year. However, I have found this to be lacking for my belief. So I have taken tougher courses in history to excel my knowledge in that area. I have also read many philosophical, political, and economic essays to find what I believe. I have had a strong resonance with Machiavelli (The Prince), Hobbes (The Leviathan), Freud (Civilization and Its Discontents, Future of an Illusion), and most importantly Nietzsche (Thus Spake Zarathustra). I have found that I have an intense will for the principles of unity, nationalism, romanticism, and psychological eudemonia.

Present-
Lately I have looked further into Paganism to fill this more romantic nationalist part of me. I enjoy this feeling of expressiveness and a greater bond to history and my ancestry. I can see the events of history unfold in front of me and when I hear songs such as the Foggy Dew, I feel great passion (this is pan-European for me as, although I love Irish culture, I am myself of German ancestry). I only believe man can create higher powers than the individual and help overcome himself through society(much like Hegel). I cannot find myself believing in any form of deity be it mono, poly, or pantheistic, but I do recognize deities as symbols of collected wisdom. I embrace science, psychology, and technology, although I believe that we should not think ourselves better than older times. Every era has its values.

So the closest I have found in my own research is Reconstructionism, however I am unsure if this is what I should pursue. What I want to get out of paganism is a greater connection to my German ancestors by practicing and celebrating in the same way they did while also developing my own personal virtues (honor, respect, self-surpassing). This is very much a continuation of my love of Nietzsche and history, if that helps. I do however recognize that there is an Indo-European connection and I am also interested in Hinduism and Buddhism (though I am afraid of losing the life affirmation aspect to certain meditative techniques to reduce pain/suffering which I believe is necessary to learn and build character). But I want to focus on European (still love Ireland) and more specifically my German ancestry.

Question-
I am happy to read books and essays on this topic if I find a suitable path. What would be best for me to research and practice?

personally I think this is something you have to find for yourself. no one can tell you which pantheon is right for you, or even that you should follow a single pantheon rather than deitys from several. you already have a good place to start, in knowing you want to focus on your Germanic ancestry, and from there, you should read all you can, and meditate, see if any particular deitys present themselves to you. and if you get a nudge from a deity you wasn't expecting, dont fret. deitys cross pantheon lines sometimes for reasons known only to themselves, and the best thing to do in that situation, is to research the ''new'' deity as well. Knowledge is your friend.

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #41 on:** May 03, 2016, 07:56:44 pm »

Quote from: cletus90851;190668

personally I think this is something you have to find for yourself. no one can tell you which pantheon is right for you, or even that you should follow a single pantheon rather than deitys from several. you already have a good place to start, in knowing you want to focus on your Germanic ancestry, and from there, you should read all you can, and meditate, see if any particular deitys present themselves to you. and if you get a nudge from a deity you wasn't expecting, dont fret. deitys cross pantheon lines sometimes for reasons known only to themselves, and the best thing to do in that situation, is to research the ''new'' deity as well. Knowledge is your friend.

Hello, cletus90851! Thank you for using comma and full stop, but, please, let me inform you, that the use of a capital letter, in the beginning of each written sentence, significantly increases readability, especially for us foreigners, who weren't brought up with English.

I also want to thank you for the correct spelling deity (some persons erroneously spell it diety, but it has nothing to do with Atkins or Paleolithic diet), but let me just remind you, that the plural form is deities, not deitys (nor dieties, as some want to have it, which sounds like a terrible disease).

RandallS · « **Reply #42 on:** May 04, 2016, 07:55:52 am »

Quote from: FraterBenedict;190700

Hello, cletus90851! Thank you for using comma and full stop, but, please, let me inform you, that the use of a capital letter, in the beginning of each written sentence, significantly increases readability, especially for us foreigners, who weren't brought up with English.

I also want to thank you for the correct spelling deity (some persons erroneously spell it diety, but it has nothing to do with Atkins or Paleolithic diet), but let me just remind you, that the plural form is deities, not deitys (nor dieties, as some want to have it, which sounds like a terrible disease).

*** MOD HAT ON ***

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RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #43 on:** May 05, 2016, 10:20:40 am »

Quote from: RandallS;190713

*** MOD HAT ON ***

Attacking a post based on grammar, spelling, etc. as you have done here is a violation of forum rules (in the "Don't Be Annoying" section):

This is a formal warning.

Sorry. I had forgotten. I will avoid it hereafter.

Grimnir Thrymsson · « **Reply #44 on:** May 05, 2016, 01:48:14 pm »

Quote from: M. Schlottman;190539

If I could understand more about Nordic/Germanic traditions, beliefs, holidays, I can have a basis to work from. Then I could reach into Northern European with Celts inclusive and compare and contrast them.

So your reference to the seasons is helpful and I think that good works for me to analyze would be forms of songs they sung, proverbs, (I don't know whether the Nine Noble Virtues are genuine or something new), and maybe reasoning behind their practices. Sources about the gods that are reliable would also help.

Here is a link to some resources that you may find helpful in researching the old Nordic or Asatru practices. There are links there for both the Asatru religion as well as historical references. I hope this helps.

http://www.irminsul.org/

http://www.irminsul.org/

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