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Author Topic: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?  (Read 4335 times)

Jenett

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Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« on: March 31, 2020, 08:31:09 am »
Religious groups of all kinds and sizes are going virtual, so I'm interested (especially as someone in the process of figuring out what works for my own coven) in what you're seeing in groups you're part of or aware of, and what you think is working and what isn't.

(I thought about calling this thread "Covens in the time of Covid-19" but of course I'm not just interested in covens here!)


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Jenett

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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2020, 08:31:22 am »
Religious groups of all kinds and sizes are going virtual, so I'm interested (especially as someone in the process of figuring out what works for my own coven) in what you're seeing in groups you're part of or aware of, and what you think is working and what isn't.

Some of my people are single parents, others have other people living with them or other limitations on when/how they're free, some are working in essential jobs, a bunch of us are higher risk for various reasons of chronic health. Lots of complicating pieces.

What I'm doing is
- I have gotten a Zoom account (paid, so we can do longer than 40 minutes).
 
- Class every other week for my Dedicants, though there are a few pieces that are much trickier to do remotely. (This is at the same time we usually meet, which is 11-2 on Saturdays)

- Chat on the alternate weeks (on a "I'll have the room open at 11, if no one shows up or tells me they'll be turning up eventually, I'll wander off around 11:20" basis)

- We'll figure out ritual when we get there (this is more likely to be a "Here's a ritual, do it at a time that works for you" than a "everyone do it together" because of the childcare aspect.)

- I may end up using the "record via Zoom" options to put together stuff people can do on their own. (In particular, we have a specific meditation we were going to do last week in person that may need more specific walkthrough.) I am looking forward to being able to use slides for a specific part of the second half of the healing class. Visual aids!

Other things in progress
The priestess who runs local public rituals is doing an online ritual (in Zoom) next Sunday - I'll be there, and I'm also curious how it goes.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 08:37:31 am by Jenett »
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PerditaPickle

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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2020, 08:38:16 am »
Religious groups of all kinds and sizes are going virtual, so I'm interested (especially as someone in the process of figuring out what works for my own coven) in what you're seeing in groups you're part of or aware of, and what you think is working and what isn't.

There's a few groups of pagan Extinction Rebellion members on Facebook who sometimes do remote workings 'together' (i.e. at the same time) - I've not participated in any, but the ones I've seen publicised have mostly put up a line or two (up to a few paragraphs) of broad instructions what to do, and then left the members to do this at the relevant time wherever they are in the world.  I'm not sure if that's the sort of thing you're thinking of?

When I get chance, I can also let you have a brief summary of the day of table-top role-playing which some friends and I had on Sunday, if interested; there might be some features of that which could be adapted for what you're thinking of.
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Jenett

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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2020, 09:14:58 am »
There's a few groups of pagan Extinction Rebellion members on Facebook who sometimes do remote workings 'together' (i.e. at the same time) - I've not participated in any, but the ones I've seen publicised have mostly put up a line or two (up to a few paragraphs) of broad instructions what to do, and then left the members to do this at the relevant time wherever they are in the world.  I'm not sure if that's the sort of thing you're thinking of?

That's one of the things I'm thinking of, though part of the issue right now is that my dedicants have learned all the parts of our ritual structure in theory, but are still pretty shaky in practice.

(Very normal stage of learning! Probably more convenient than if we hadn't covered some of it yet! But a little tricky, since part of what we'd normally be focusing on at this point is "get familiar with the ritual steps when there's someone (me) who can give pointers as needed". Which if I am not there to see/feel what they're doing, is a lot trickier.)

So it's balancing the pedagogical goal (we would normally be looking at initiations around June or July, and I would like not to need to delay for "wait, need to have these skills at a certain basic level" reasons at that point if we have stopped or paused social distancing for a bit. Our initiations require physical closeness, so not an option when social distancing is in play.)

But on a ritual/community level, I am also at "I want you to be able to do meaningful ritual while we can't get together." Where "Here's an outline, go forth and do it." would work fine. (Though given people's kids and other commitments, it wouldn't be all of us at the same time anyway, probably.)

Quote
I can also let you have a brief summary of the day of table-top role-playing which some friends and I had on Sunday, if interested; there might be some features of that which could be adapted for what you're thinking of.

That'd be great. I'm keeping an eye on a lot of the academic class moving online, and I'm technically ept, but the "what is the lived experience of doing X this way" is a thing that people are figuring out in all sorts of different ways, and that's the part I'm trying to figure out for the specific training needs + preferences and needs of group members.
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Dynes Hysbys

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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2020, 09:16:33 am »
Religious groups of all kinds and sizes are going virtual, so I'm interested (especially as someone in the process of figuring out what works for my own coven) in what you're seeing in groups you're part of or aware of, and what you think is working and what isn't.

(I thought about calling this thread "Covens in the time of Covid-19" but of course I'm not just interested in covens here!)

My coven has moved online for group ritual. It takes a bit of planning but it's totally possible to throw up shared sacred space and work as a group via Webex.

Socially most of the local meet ups have also gone virtual.

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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2020, 09:24:44 am »
That's one of the things I'm thinking of, though part of the issue right now is that my dedicants have learned all the parts of our ritual structure in theory, but are still pretty shaky in practice.


My students are a bit past that stage but using video conferencing connections allow me to see what they are doing and the energetic feel comes through just fine. I can talk them through it in real time just as if we were in the same room together.

Initiation is about a year off for all of them (if they make it that far). We can certainly do all the work needed and administer the  pre initiation tests using video conferencing but actual initiation will need to be done in person and I can't see any way around that. Nor actually would I want to.

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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2020, 01:56:23 pm »
Religious groups of all kinds and sizes are going virtual, so I'm interested (especially as someone in the process of figuring out what works for my own coven) in what you're seeing in groups you're part of or aware of, and what you think is working and what isn't.

(I thought about calling this thread "Covens in the time of Covid-19" but of course I'm not just interested in covens here!)

My temple is live streaming daily and special pujas. Whether anyone attends temple or not, all Hindu temples perform pujas at the regular time. So the streaming and getting to see a puja is gravy. The priests are there to serve the gods, so they have to, no matter what. I watched one so far, I'm going to try to watch others. The temple has a mailing list many people subscribe to, to get the latest. Personally, I still perform my daily home puja almost every day. I do miss sometimes for one reason or another.

Btw, if anyone is interested in seeing what the hell I am talking about here's the link to the temple Youtube site. No, not pushing or proselytizing, but a lot of people are just flat out interested in Hinduism.  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3s1KWUlEilwMSEUJhJD1bQ

Jenett

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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2020, 02:07:34 pm »
My students are a bit past that stage but using video conferencing connections allow me to see what they are doing and the energetic feel comes through just fine. I can talk them through it in real time just as if we were in the same room together.

In my case, we've had some technical issues (two people need to use phone cameras, so really limited view/sound flexibility), one person couldn't get the video to work on Saturday, etc. and generally has limited Internet access.

And there's also the childcare piece (two of my folks are single parents): delaying doing stuff until small people are in bed is an issue on my end for both "Argh, that is my writing time" reasons (more fixable) and "If I am teaching in the mid evening, it will mess up my sleep, and that has significant health consequences" reasons (less fixable, especially since some med changes have made me more migraine prone.)

So manageable for class, where we can pause if needed, but I'm being cautious about assuming I can just transfer the ritual parts (and especially the ritual-training parts) meaningfully for our shared situation. 

Definitely interested in comments from people navigating that range of tech options/other logistical issues around this, in terms of what works without being overly intrusive.

I've also had mixed experiences in the past with getting a sense of how well someone's managing energy remotely - I suspect it's because my primary energy sensing modes are most attuned to pressure shifts and the fact I 'hear' energy, and neither of those come through as clearly digitally. If I had other experienced initiates to triangulate experiences with, I'd feel better about evaluating the energy work digitally, but that's also not a thing I can draw on at the moment.

(Asking them to respond to each other is definitely an option, but also one I want to set up thoughtfully since they've got a range of things they individually find easier/harder, and I don't want to make them feel bad they can't give feedback in a new and unusual situation.)
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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2020, 02:41:48 pm »
Religious groups of all kinds and sizes are going virtual, so I'm interested (especially as someone in the process of figuring out what works for my own coven) in what you're seeing in groups you're part of or aware of, and what you think is working and what isn't.

Got no pagan content, but my church has gone virtual, and we're slowly hashing out how that works for us.

For services: a combination of live and pre-recorded material (last week the parish minister had a pre-recorded meditation, f'ex), and we're working out how to get our usual run of occasional soloists and musicians doing things. (Zoom is not optimised for musical performances to say the least. The flautist kept tripping some sort of 'you are overloading the high frequencies so we have to partially mute you' effect.) We've been doing some 'break people out into randomized groups to chat and check in' which means I am doing more socializing "at church" than I actually have done... at church, between being socially inept and being covered in children. (Sometimes literally.)

I'm helping teach religious education still, so we have that group and are having a better shot at coaxing the kids into behaving, actually, because they're desperate for interactivity with the outside world.  Also we're watching episodes of the Twilight Zone, which is kinda cool.

The church staff is also doing regular dropin chats - today I had lunch with the senior minister whow as amused by my becoming increasingly and literally covered in children.  Just... social.  Seeing other humans.

Nonreligiously:

The kids get videos from their teachers sometimes (for the olders) and have a daily class chat with their schoolmates (the preschoolers), and we may have finally sorted out how to do all the various lessons with the half-dozen different programs some of which are more technically competent than others.

We're trying to figure out how to do a family video chat with grandparents/others on the regular, or as my housemate put it, "We have six sets of grandparents and on the seventh day we rested."
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PerditaPickle

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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2020, 03:29:46 pm »
(Zoom is not optimised for musical performances to say the least. The flautist kept tripping some sort of 'you are overloading the high frequencies so we have to partially mute you' effect.)

I think this is true for Discord as well, and doesn't necessarily need flutes to set it off - some of the RPers on Sunday became quite shrill when excited, and at that point it just came through as noise not words!

Some of the participants who are more tech savvy were able to talk us through tinkering with some of the sound settings (and remind people that they didn't need to shout/lean into their mic to be heard), but again those people participating on phones had a fiddlier time of it than those of us on PCs.

From what I can recall of Zoom (my experience is just the few UAN G3Ms), I'd imagine it could be a useful tool for this sort of thing.
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PerditaPickle

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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2020, 04:25:46 pm »
That'd be great. I'm keeping an eye on a lot of the academic class moving online, and I'm technically ept, but the "what is the lived experience of doing X this way" is a thing that people are figuring out in all sorts of different ways, and that's the part I'm trying to figure out for the specific training needs + preferences and needs of group members.

So the table-top RPG which we participate in is mostly unstructured and improvised, beyond the referee giving a briefing of the scenario at the start of the game, attending to game mechanics matters as we go and then just a bit of 'steering' now & again at intervals.  The rest is up to the participants to determine what they want their characters to do and how they want to do it.

There was a long preamble on Sunday as people got themselves set up on Discord with the relevant settings (there always is a long preamble anyway, as people do the social bit and then realise they need to spend some time on the development of their RP character, too).

The referee used both the chat feature of Discord to post pictures of e.g. objects our characters were finding & interacting with, to save him just having to describe them, only.  And he also used the livestreaming feature to put up a map of the location our characters were travelling, on which he was then able to use the mouse pointer as though it were a laser pointer on a presentation, to draw our attention to particular things.

There was also a sound channel the ref had set up over which he was playing appropriate ambient noises the whole time, e.g. medieval village, evil chanting etc (I'd suggested MyNoise for this but he forgot and found some other similar thing to use instead).

And finally, there was a private voice chat channel set up for the ref to use to give secret descriptions & info to one or two players, without disclosing it to the whole group (as well as being able to send individual written PMs to people).  He would tell one or more of us to jump into that channel when required, and everything was then totally segregated, if that's the right word, from the rest of the group.

It worked reasonably well, especially for a first attempt (despite the inevitable teething problems), and I think we all concurred that it had enough promise to look to do it again in the future.

Some of the issues we had were as follows:-

~ Phone issues - those using phones as opposed to PCs couldn't see both the chat section and the live-streamed section on their screens at the same time (so there were times when some of us were writing stuff in chat but it wasn't being seen by everyone);

~ Repeatedly minimised live-stream - whenever the ref minimised his Discord screen (to refer to his story brief, which I presume he had in some word processing software probably) the livestream would stop, and he'd have to set it going again when he alt-tabbed back to Discord;

~ Talking over one another - people tended to do this a lot (for me I think it was the single biggest headache, and unlike being actually present in a group whereby you can still sometimes make out some of what multiple people are saying at once, over Discord I could just hear the fact that more than one person was speaking but not any part of what any of them was saying (though my hearing is admittedly not the best hearing to begin with anyways));

~ And the other thing about the above, is that the more assertive/louder people got all the limelight, whilst the quieter/meeker/less experienced got left out quite a bit.

~ Fine-tuning the push-to-talk button delay - if the delay's too long it's all too easy for the beginning of what someone's saying to be chopped off;

~ Bit of echoing/feedback - because my husband and I were sat in the same room and I think because I don't have a headset with a mic (but was using the mic on my laptop), the others were hearing all sorts of echoing from our mics picking up one another's sound, and a bit of feedback;

~ Background noise - for some people who didn't have headsets with mics and were not using a push-to-talk button in Discord, the rest of us could hear their phones vibrating, TVs playing, kids complaining, partners arguing, food rustling/chewing, burping/farting & etc!  (Okay it might've been me who farted   :-[ )  But this was an all day event, so we were glued to our screens from 9:30am to 6pm (with a half hour lunch).

~ Pointing/gesturing at own screen!  More than one person found themselves doing this, and forgetting that the others couldn't see them!  It was a source of some amusement for us, but could be a time-waster for those trying to achieve something more solemn.

I think that's a round up of most of the issues I can recall, some of which won't apply to something more structured and (I presume) slightly shorter time-scaled such as classes/ritual, and some of which won't apply to other applications than Discord, too.  If I think of anything else I'll add it, later.

I hope that's of some use/interest.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 04:29:32 pm by PerditaPickle »
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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2020, 09:31:59 pm »
what you think is working and what isn't.

Though I'm not a part of a Coven, I have a tiny bit of experience leading rituals in a chat room, and with just a little adjustment they do work very well.  It was easy to make all inclusive so everyone could take on a role.  In places where one of us needed everyone to repeat a phrase, it would be typed with those words in quotations.

Recently with a hearing friend, we wrote a spell together (took forever because we were texting).  We then arranged a time to perform our spell.  Since everything was meticulously planned out, it went well.  We used the video option on our cell phones, Phoenix speaking his parts, and me signing mine.


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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2020, 02:12:51 am »
Religious groups of all kinds and sizes are going virtual, so I'm interested (especially as someone in the process of figuring out what works for my own coven) in what you're seeing in groups you're part of or aware of, and what you think is working and what isn't.

This approach seems to be a very hit-and-miss at the moment, depending on the interest and tech ability of leaders and group members. My Druid grove and moot have both basically closed down for the duration as no one seems interested in trying online ritual/chat. I might ask again in the grove Facebook group though, as I’m up for doing something on Zoom for Beltane. My church, on the other hand, has totally embraced the situation and is doing some smaller Zoom services and larger live-streamed services (which have been keeping me connected to the world, so I’m very grateful), plus lots of keeping in touch on WhatsApp in small groups. I’ve also done a couple of online meditation groups on Zoom and Skype - those have been under 5 people and mostly only the meditation leader speaking, so they’ve worked.

From a practical standpoint, the size of the group seems to make a difference. My church is aiming to limit the Zoom services to 10-12. Importantly, the people who aren’t speaking at that moment are all muted, as talking over each other can cause problems. They’re doing no music over Zoom either - that’s being saved for streaming - as it very often comes across as jerky (and sets off my sensory sensitivities as a result). Services that they expect to attract more people are being kept to streaming on a website. I’m guessing your coven is relatively small, Jenett? Breakout groups on Zoom might work if it’s large.

This has reminded me to try and get my Druid grove talking about this again, so thanks!


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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2020, 10:50:38 am »
From a practical standpoint, the size of the group seems to make a difference. My church is aiming to limit the Zoom services to 10-12. Importantly, the people who aren’t speaking at that moment are all muted, as talking over each other can cause problems. They’re doing no music over Zoom either - that’s being saved for streaming - as it very often comes across as jerky (and sets off my sensory sensitivities as a result). Services that they expect to attract more people are being kept to streaming on a website. I’m guessing your coven is relatively small, Jenett? Breakout groups on Zoom might work if it’s large.

I think the size of the group makes a difference, yeah. My coven is indeed small (four people plus me if everyone's there), but the camera for one of them is not behaving, so she can see us, but we can't see her (which makes flow of conversation a little trickier.)

So far we've done one "Let's see each other and also cover a bit of class material", one open chat (got one of them), and then yesterday did a second class, which went well, but we stopped at 90 minutes (normally we'd have 3 hours of class twice a month), because I think paying attention on screen is just more exhausting. Also, battery life is an issue for people.

On the other hand, this was a class that lent itself to visual examples, so I put together a set of slides and use screen sharing to be able to point at them, which was fun.

We didn't have ritual scheduled in April for other scheduling reasons, but I do now have an idea for Beltane that I think should work and we're going to try that. (Meditation and charging something to eat or drink). I'm still thinking about how to do the circle setup parts in a way that makes sense, or if I ask them to do it on their own as I say the words on screen, or what.

I also (since last posting in this thread) have been to an online ritual run by a local priestess who does public rituals, and whose take I like - that had about 18 people at max, and during the meditation they muted everyone so that there would be no interrupting sounds. It took a bit of tech fiddling to get things to work, but once we got it sorted, it was great.

The one thing I'm definitely noticing is that if I'm on a call with more than 2-3 other people, I end up saying almost nothing, because I can never get myself into the conversation. (And I am normally okay at that, if sometimes awkward.) As someone hosting, I'm doing my best to leave spaces for conversation, check in with the person who doesn't have camera, since I can't see if she's trying to say something, etc.
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Re: Remote and together - what're you doing that's working?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2020, 09:34:55 pm »
Religious groups of all kinds and sizes are going virtual, so I'm interested (especially as someone in the process of figuring out what works for my own coven) in what you're seeing in groups you're part of or aware of, and what you think is working and what isn't.

(I thought about calling this thread "Covens in the time of Covid-19" but of course I'm not just interested in covens here!)

My church and my writers' group have gone virtual-- streaming and Slack, respectively.
Both seem to do the trick, although today's stream was suuuuper laggy.
You have my sword
And my shield
And my... um... slacks.

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