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Author Topic: Greedy, greedy love  (Read 4397 times)

LokeanGoddess

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Greedy, greedy love
« on: July 10, 2012, 11:06:22 pm »
Recently I was on the interwebz (of course) looking up new rituals I could use to try to marry Loki and become a godspouse. This one blogger wrote in very full detail her expeditions with Loki and described her very human conversations and experiences with Him, and I found myself overcome with jealousy. How do I overcome this, and is it rational at all? I want Loki to love me, and I want this more fiercely than I've ever wanted anything.

Lokabrenna

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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2012, 12:11:48 am »
Quote from: LokeanGoddess;63625
Recently I was on the interwebz (of course) looking up new rituals I could use to try to marry Loki and become a godspouse. This one blogger wrote in very full detail her expeditions with Loki and described her very human conversations and experiences with Him, and I found myself overcome with jealousy. How do I overcome this, and is it rational at all? I want Loki to love me, and I want this more fiercely than I've ever wanted anything.


Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Slow down! First of all, you can't force a deity to do ANYTHING, much less enter a committed relationship with a mortal, as hard as it might be to accept, we don't generally get to choose how we relate to our deities. I would say feeling jealousy because others have a deeper connection to a deity is normal, but if Loki shows no sign of wanting to change his relationship with you, there is NO WAY IN HEL that it's going to change!  

The fact is, even though you might *want* to be a godspouse with every fiber of your being, that just might not be the sort of relationship you're meant to have. Quite frankly, it strikes me as rather presumptuous that you, a mortal, would even consider attempting to force a deity to do anything against their will.

Sharysa

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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 04:29:06 am »
Quote from: LokeanGoddess;63625




Seconding what Lokabrenna said. There is a longstanding stance on "love spells" among magical practitioners--most of them agree that the nature of love implies that it's given, not forced, and thus you can't control it. Not without really bad consequences.

You really shouldn't call on the gods without understanding they they might not respond. Or that they will, which isn't always a good thing.

Loki's concept of love might not match yours. He's a god, and most gods perceive things on an entirely different level than we do.

As someone who recently contacted my own pantheon's god of love for romantic help (though not from him), I think you need to figure out why you want this so badly. Especially since you call yourself greedy, which isn't the best adjective to use for romance.

I called Aengus Og for help because I was really, really lonely--but not romantically, like I initially thought. Aengus told me right off the bat that "You don't need that kind of love right now, and I can't help you with the kind you do need. I'll see what I can do when you feel less like shit."

That was frustrating. But as I gradually started talking to him more, I ended up with the entirely different problem that I was depending on him too much. It took weeks of everyone telling me that I should slow down, and my excuses for not doing so were increasingly flimsy (complicated by the issues that the gods themselves brought up), so eventually I forced myself to calm down and realized that they had a point.

So I started looking at therapy and self-help books, and it seems just accepting that I have options has made me feel less dependent on the gods. Which isn't a bad thing at all, because the key word is dependent.

Do I still contact the gods when I can? Yes. Sometimes I had a really bad day and I need to vent; but most of the time it's a more typical prayer where I tell them, "Hi, just saying thanks for helping me stay sane." They don't always respond, but compared to when I was having an emotional catharsis every week, I actually prefer it.

Do I ask their help to sort out my weirder problems? Yes. I'm extremely intuitive, and that in itself means I don't always know how to describe what I experience.

But do I feel like I literally need the gods? No. I did at first, because I don't think I'd have survived without Aengus constantly reassuring me "You're not crazy--you're just really, really broken right now." And once, he helped me literally survive some sort of PTSD attack.

But that all came with lots of confusion, misunderstandings and near-misses because I barely knew what I was doing--or why I was doing it. Luckily enough, the main things Aengus had been drilling into my head were that trusting people is good, and you shouldn't hide important things from people who care about you. If Aengus hadn't been Aengus, after he spent weeks telling me to open up to people and be honest, I find it very likely that I'd be in a psych ward by now.

Maybe I'm being paranoid, but this bears repeating: The gods are extremely powerful. You don't want to call on them without understanding everything as well as you can, especially yourself.

If you don't, then eventually you'll be forced to--whether you want it or not.
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Faemon

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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2012, 05:00:17 am »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;63629
it strikes me as rather presumptuous that you, a mortal, would even consider attempting to force a deity to do anything against their will.
I see it as quite natural actually to go through with ritualistic dedication that would be, at least on the worshipper's end, as binding as a marriage.

Whether the deity in question reciprocates, or even remains faithful to you after seeming to reciprocate, I agree that's... not up to the worshipper.

Quote
I would say feeling jealousy because others have a deeper connection to a deity is normal, but if Loki shows no sign of wanting to change his relationship with you, there is NO WAY IN HEL that it's going to change!
I personally disagree with jealousy being normal. I think it shows immaturity, insecurity, and a selfish perspective that the original poster is very right to want to overcome. Unfortunately, I have no suggestions about how. The way LG can overcome it, must be a very different way from mine. (I'm just fairly certain that shouting you down for being greedy when you already know it won't help, LG. But, speaking from my own failures at heathenry, I like to concur with Lokabrenna's NO WAY IN HEL.)

Quote from: Sharysa;63638
The gods are extremely powerful. You don't want to call on them without understanding everything as well as you can, especially yourself.

If you don't, then eventually you'll be forced to--whether you want it or not.
Also concur.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 05:02:51 am by Faemon »
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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2012, 05:17:46 am »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;63629
First of all, you can't force a deity to do ANYTHING, much less enter a committed relationship with a mortal, as hard as it might be to accept, we don't generally get to choose how we relate to our deities.


Yep.  Yahweh knocked up a Jewish virgin, let someone else raise His kid... and we all know how that panned out.
But seriously... take heed of the comments and advice given.  As interpersonal as divinity might appear to be, there remains a part that is ineffable/inscrutable, effectively alien to human existence, and thus not especially malleable to our desires and intentions.
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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2012, 05:52:52 am »
Quote from: triple_entendre;63639
I see it as quite natural actually to go through with ritualistic dedication that would be, at least on the worshipper's end, as binding as a marriage.

Whether the deity in question reciprocates, or even remains faithful to you after seeming to reciprocate, I agree that's... not up to the worshipper.

But there's a difference between a ritualistic dedication and a god-spouse kind of relationship. It's my understanding that when it comes to godspousery is the god to show that kind of interest and while a mortal can certainly volunteer that specific role, to go and organize a marriage ceremony  without having imput from said deity before would come across as both rude and arrogant.

In the best of all possible outcomes, the deity would ignore the 'candidate', in the worst one  that line of behavior might invite punishment.

Quote from: LokeanGoddess;63625
Recently I was on the interwebz (of course) looking up new rituals I could use to try to marry Loki and become a godspouse. This one blogger wrote in very full detail her expeditions with Loki and described her very human conversations and experiences with Him, and I found myself overcome with jealousy. How do I overcome this, and is it rational at all? I want Loki to love me, and I want this more fiercely than I've ever wanted anything.

My advice is: talk with Loki openly, own up to your feelings on the matter if you still feel so pulled to jump into that kind of commitment but before try to understand where that 'need' to be a godspouse comes- Is it really something you want out of genuine love for a god you already deeply know, or is it rather a desire that is more ego-based, tied to a desire to be validated by a god's love?

Because you can't go to Loki without understanding  this before - it would be insulting toward the god and I don't think He would take to that kindly.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 05:53:36 am by SkySamuelle »
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Nachtigall

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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2012, 06:11:37 am »
Quote from: LokeanGoddess;63625
Recently I was on the interwebz (of course) looking up new rituals I could use to try to marry Loki and become a godspouse. This one blogger wrote in very full detail her expeditions with Loki and described her very human conversations and experiences with Him, and I found myself overcome with jealousy. How do I overcome this, and is it rational at all? I want Loki to love me, and I want this more fiercely than I've ever wanted anything.

I still find the concept of godspouses, Loki's godspouses especially, rather questionable... But perhaps it can be understood on two levels.

First, there's a very literal understanding, a marriage, that is in almost all aspects resembles a marriage between mortals. In this case... the others are probably right. Who knows, you may explain your desire to the deity in question, perhaps it would help.

There's also a metaphorical understanding of divine marriage, viewing the mystical union of the soul and the God through bridal symbolism... perhaps in some way similar (but not quite equal) to Hindu concept of bhakti, or to Christian "brides of Christ". This may be achievable through devotional practice, but it takes far more than just one ritual.

Once again, you may do a dedication ritual to Loki, in which you explain your intentions (Liber Astarte may give you ideas, for example). That is, if you are absolutely sure that you want to live with this.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 06:12:57 am by Nachtigall »

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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2012, 01:25:35 pm »
Quote from: LokeanGoddess;63625
Recently I was on the interwebz (of course) looking up new rituals I could use to try to marry Loki and become a godspouse. This one blogger wrote in very full detail her expeditions with Loki and described her very human conversations and experiences with Him, and I found myself overcome with jealousy. How do I overcome this, and is it rational at all? I want Loki to love me, and I want this more fiercely than I've ever wanted anything.

 
Okay, first thing: back the everliving fuck up and get a grip.  You sound like a teenager who wants to know what spells to use to get Tom Cruise to marry her (because hey, isn't he single now?).

Once you've started to get your shit together, actually think about this.  You want to have an intimate, mutually entwined relationship with a god.  Do you actually have anything to offer that god?  Because those kinds of relationships are fucking hard work, and if all you have to offer a god is desperation, you're not worth marrying.  At most, you're a one-use bit of disposable tool, assuming that you can be aimed in a useful direction before you flame out.  To those gods with a more malicious side - and Loki is certainly one of those, at times - you're just begging to be used as a no-conditions chew toy, in that "It may be your purpose in life is to serve as an example for others" kind of way.

The northern Powers value strength, integrity, and competence.  Stuff like this is not going to impress anyone.  You're doing the spiritual equivalent of covering the altar with filthy kleenex here, which is neither hospitable nor impressive.  If you want a relationship like that, stop weeping and throwing your frailty at your god's feet, stand up, and act like someone who might be worth having.  Sobbing, writhing would-be consorts are useless, and very few gods will waste time on things that serve no function.

Before you go exploding in seething jealousy over people who have something you think you want, do some reading about what they have to do to hold up their end of the deal.  Some people have to do the nun thing and remain celibate.  Some have to do extensive, constant ritual work.  Some are heavily hemmed in by taboos and will become sick if they disobey.  There are codes of conduct, obligations of service, and other things that just come along with that particular gig like acorns come along with oak trees.  They are not optional extras.

And no god is going to really put you in a position where you are signed up for those duties and obligations unless you've demonstrated that you have a capacity for doing them - that is, except if you're being set up to fail.  If you can't do the work, you can't get the job for real.  Which means you're better served getting over your desire and doing whatever self-work it will take to get yourself into a place where you can do whatever work your god will set you without crashing and burning.  If you enter into an intimate devotional relationship with a god, it will not be about what you want, it will be about what furthers the work of that god and pleases him.  What you want may be taken into consideration, but it will not be the top priority on the list.

Do your devotions.  Dedicate yourself if you feel the need, though I would not recommend doing so while you're doing the "I am obsessed with this movie star" thing.  But - if you want some kind of reciprocal relationship - act like someone with something to contribute.  One thing I know from people who deal with Loki on a regular basis: he won't tolerate you lying to yourself.
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Lokabrenna

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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2012, 01:49:27 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;63684
Okay, first thing: back the everliving fuck up and get a grip.  You sound like a teenager who wants to know what spells to use to get Tom Cruise to marry her (because hey, isn't he single now?).


If this post was a person, I'd marry it. :)

Rhyshadow

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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2012, 02:03:29 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;63688
If this post was a person, I'd marry it. :)

 
Second that

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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 02:48:14 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;63684
Okay, first thing: back the everliving fuck up and get a grip.  You sound like a teenager who wants to know what spells to use to get Tom Cruise to marry her (because hey, isn't he single now?).

Once you've started to get your shit together, actually think about this.  You want to have an intimate, mutually entwined relationship with a god.  Do you actually have anything to offer that god?  Because those kinds of relationships are fucking hard work, and if all you have to offer a god is desperation, you're not worth marrying.  At most, you're a one-use bit of disposable tool, assuming that you can be aimed in a useful direction before you flame out.  To those gods with a more malicious side - and Loki is certainly one of those, at times - you're just begging to be used as a no-conditions chew toy, in that "It may be your purpose in life is to serve as an example for others" kind of way.

The northern Powers value strength, integrity, and competence.  Stuff like this is not going to impress anyone.  You're doing the spiritual equivalent of covering the altar with filthy kleenex here, which is neither hospitable nor impressive.  If you want a relationship like that, stop weeping and throwing your frailty at your god's feet, stand up, and act like someone who might be worth having.  Sobbing, writhing would-be consorts are useless, and very few gods will waste time on things that serve no function.

Before you go exploding in seething jealousy over people who have something you think you want, do some reading about what they have to do to hold up their end of the deal.  Some people have to do the nun thing and remain celibate.  Some have to do extensive, constant ritual work.  Some are heavily hemmed in by taboos and will become sick if they disobey.  There are codes of conduct, obligations of service, and other things that just come along with that particular gig like acorns come along with oak trees.  They are not optional extras.

And no god is going to really put you in a position where you are signed up for those duties and obligations unless you've demonstrated that you have a capacity for doing them - that is, except if you're being set up to fail.  If you can't do the work, you can't get the job for real.  Which means you're better served getting over your desire and doing whatever self-work it will take to get yourself into a place where you can do whatever work your god will set you without crashing and burning.  If you enter into an intimate devotional relationship with a god, it will not be about what you want, it will be about what furthers the work of that god and pleases him.  What you want may be taken into consideration, but it will not be the top priority on the list.

Do your devotions.  Dedicate yourself if you feel the need, though I would not recommend doing so while you're doing the "I am obsessed with this movie star" thing.  But - if you want some kind of reciprocal relationship - act like someone with something to contribute.  One thing I know from people who deal with Loki on a regular basis: he won't tolerate you lying to yourself.

My vote goes here for years best post. Seriously a Godspouse? Good answer.

Edit: Yes I quoted the whole post just because it's that good.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:49:23 pm by Wickerman »
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Juniperberry

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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 04:12:41 pm »
Quote from: Wickerman
. Seriously a Godspouse? Good answer.
.


They're not saying the idea of godspouses are ridiculous.  They're saying Lokeangoddess is too ridiculous to be one.
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monsnoleedra

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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 04:28:34 pm »
Quote from: LokeanGoddess;63625
Recently I was on the interwebz (of course) looking up new rituals I could use to try to marry Loki and become a godspouse. This one blogger wrote in very full detail her expeditions with Loki and described her very human conversations and experiences with Him, and I found myself overcome with jealousy. How do I overcome this, and is it rational at all? I want Loki to love me, and I want this more fiercely than I've ever wanted anything.

Your not going to like this but a godspouse is nothing to be lightly entered into.  It's like having a shamanic wife / husband and many times evolves to the point where you are not allowed to have any physical relationship.  A fact that is actually not that uncommon.

Your also asking about help for aiding or protecting a cursed lover who is a Satanist then here asking about being a god-spouse.  I wonder if your willing to toss that lover beneath the wheels if Loki reaches out to claim you as his own and enforces your stance of loyality and devotion to him?

That doesn't even come close to addressing that god-spouses are not typically part of any Wiccan practice i've ever encountered yet you claim to be Wiccan.  It also moves into a really unbalanced relationship where Lord and Lady are supposed to be about balance.

Perrsonaly I'd not advise or recommend anyone undertake that route, especially given the commitment that it actually demands upon and from the practitioner.  Especially given the lack of experience you seem to have as indicated by the 4 posts you have made here.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 04:32:33 pm by monsnoleedra »

Darkhawk

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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 04:31:14 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;63710
That doesn't even come close to addressing that god-spouses are not typically part of any Wiccan practice i've ever encountered yet you claim to be Wiccan.

 
An odd thing to say to someone with "Rokkatru" listed as their religion.
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Re: Greedy, greedy love
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 04:35:15 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;63711
An odd thing to say to someone with "Rokkatru" listed as their religion.

 
From her first post here..

Quote
So, I'm literally brand new here. I was intrigued by the idea of The Wolves of Sherwood, and then that led me to Rokkatru, which was even more convenient because I've been practicing Wicca for a few years now. I would love to learn more about being a Lokean, because the whole concept of it draws me in and is something I would absolutely love to be involved in. I'm completely new and would love all the guidance I can get.

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