collapse

* Recent Posts

Re: Where are you on the phantasia spectrum? by PerditaPickle
[April 14, 2021, 04:19:58 pm]


Re: Recently Blogged by Kylara
[April 14, 2021, 03:40:23 pm]


Re: Where are you on the phantasia spectrum? by PerditaPickle
[April 14, 2021, 01:27:57 pm]


Re: Where are you on the phantasia spectrum? by Sophia C
[April 14, 2021, 10:30:47 am]


Re: Where are you on the phantasia spectrum? by muis
[April 14, 2021, 06:32:05 am]

Author Topic: Elements & Instruments  (Read 751 times)

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3186
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 524
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Elements & Instruments
« on: March 15, 2021, 01:27:16 pm »
After doing some digging online, it seems the following correspondences are usually assigned to the four classical elements in Western esoteric tradition for musical instruments:

EARTH--Drums. Makes sense to me.

AIR--Wind instruments. Another no-brainer...although I didn't see anything that specified whether that's woodwinds or brass instruments. I suppose it's meant to include both?

WATER--Metal percussives (bells, cymbals, gongs, chimes, tambourine, triangle...). Not as intuitive, but I can go with it.

FIRE--String instruments. What?

I don't get that last one at all, except for by exclusion (everything else was taken). Why violins/cellos/guitars/harps for fire? Further, in the context of a large-scale ritual, the other 3 all involve sounds that will carry a great distance; strings, not so much. So why strings?

I know correspondences are what we say they are, and there's lots of variations (the endless swords-wands debate!)...so does anybody out there have any thoughts on how the instruments align with the elements? Has anybody worked that into their practice, or perhaps even used it in ritual?

And WTF is up with fire?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Anon100

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2019
  • Posts: 468
  • Country: gb
  • Total likes: 131
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Pagan
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2021, 02:36:51 pm »

WATER--Metal percussives (bells, cymbals, gongs, chimes, tambourine, triangle...). Not as intuitive, but I can go with it.

FIRE--String instruments. What?

Just on intuition and connections I'd imagine it's because the main body of most stringed instruments is wood ( which can burn ), violins in particular also have friction which can cause fire. The sound also is sharper which makes me think of fire biting.
There's always singing glasses ( not sure if that's their name, the ones which get filled with water so they give different tones ) for water.

Ashmire

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2017
  • Posts: 399
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 168
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Eclectic, featuring mainly East Asian and Egyptian plus pop-cultural influences
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2021, 02:47:18 pm »
Just on intuition and connections I'd imagine it's because the main body of most stringed instruments is wood ( which can burn ), violins in particular also have friction which can cause fire. The sound also is sharper which makes me think of fire biting.
There's always singing glasses ( not sure if that's their name, the ones which get filled with water so they give different tones ) for water.

That sounds better than what I was thinking, which was that there is historically a folkloric connection between stringed instruments and Satan/Hellfire ( Charlie Daniels didn't totally make that up himself!), which wouldn't necessarily apply or appeal to many pagans.  All in all, though, I'm not sure you can really get all things connected to all elements.

Morag

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: deep in the woods
  • *
  • Posts: 2576
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 212
  • cranky witch
    • View Profile
    • Everyday Magic
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: zie/zir or she/her
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2021, 05:19:34 pm »
FIRE--String instruments. What?

I don't know, having heard Vanessa Mae's violin pieces...I can see the fire/strings correspondence.



Personally though, I might be more inclined to put metal percussive instruments as Fire and strings as Water...or not. I don't know really; it's not something I ever gave any thought to before.
Pray drunk. Hex sober.
Everyday Magic
"The most powerful god at any given moment is the one who can solve the moment's problem."
-Darkhawk

Allaya

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Out of My Mind
  • Posts: 944
  • Country: no
  • Total likes: 84
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Idio-syncretic
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/hers
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2021, 05:54:17 pm »
WATER--Metal percussives (bells, cymbals, gongs, chimes, tambourine, triangle...). Not as intuitive, but I can go with it.

Absolutely intuitive for those possessing the historical context. What you're missing is a knowledge of the medieval water clock, which is a fairly obscure bit of trivia nowadays.

Have a watch of the fabulous James Burke explain the water clock here (go to the 15:00 minute mark): https://archive.org/details/james-burke-connections_s01e05

Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Aisling

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 3892
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 264
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Eclectic Pagan Witch
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2021, 06:59:45 pm »
I don't know, having heard Vanessa Mae's violin pieces...I can see the fire/strings correspondence.

She sprang to my mind as well.  For me, violin/fiddle resonate with the fire association.  Cello and other strings, not so much. 
"All your questions can be answered, if that is what you want.
But once you learn your answers, you can never unlearn them."
~Neil Gaiman,
American Gods

Ashmire

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2017
  • Posts: 399
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 168
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Eclectic, featuring mainly East Asian and Egyptian plus pop-cultural influences
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2021, 07:10:38 pm »
Absolutely intuitive for those possessing the historical context. What you're missing is a knowledge of the medieval water clock, which is a fairly obscure bit of trivia nowadays.

Have a watch of the fabulous James Burke explain the water clock here (go to the 15:00 minute mark): https://archive.org/details/james-burke-connections_s01e05

Equally intuitive if you've ever been in a metal-roofed building during a rainstorm!

PerditaPickle

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2015
  • Location: UK
  • Posts: 1642
  • Country: england
  • Total likes: 422
  • It's all metta - at least, I believe it should be
    • View Profile
    • Portrait of Perpetual Perplexity
  • Religion: Druid-ish
  • Preferred Pronouns: She/her/hers
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2021, 07:16:21 pm »
WATER--Metal percussives (bells, cymbals, gongs, chimes, tambourine, triangle...). Not as intuitive, but I can go with it.

Tinkling, sounds like water flowing (bells and chimes especially - would xylophone come under this category, too (I'm aware they could have either metal or wooden keys, if keys is the right word)?  Also, the thumb harp, which my husband was gifted for Christmas by my folks.

Oh, and this lovely drum thingy, which I really want one of:  http://tonguedrum.co.uk/ (please note my browser is telling me this site's not secure, apparently).


[ETA missing word and punctuation -- PP]
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 07:17:54 pm by PerditaPickle »
“Radiate boundless love towards the entire world — above, below, and across — unhindered, without ill will, without enmity.” – The Buddha
(From the Metta Sutta)

My Portrait of Perpetual Perplexity blog

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 9050
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 444
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2021, 04:21:13 pm »
Oh, and this lovely drum thingy, which I really want one of:  http://tonguedrum.co.uk/ (please note my browser is telling me this site's not secure, apparently).

Hey, nifty. <bookmarks... after doing the operation described below>

A secure connection can be made just by adding 's' to 'http' (thus, 'https'), and (as is not always the case when converting to the secure https!) the site still appears and functions. Or, here is the secure clickylink.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2494
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 203
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Bitter Clinger. Sith Lord.
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2021, 05:12:04 pm »

WATER.


One that comes to mind for me is the singing bowl. I think that's probably because bowl = vessel, and whatever other meaning you wanna attach to that.

Also, a cursory googling tells me you can play the bowl while there's water in it. So.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Aster Breo

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2951
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 126
    • View Profile
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2021, 09:52:48 pm »


After doing some digging online, it seems the following correspondences are usually assigned to the four classical elements in Western esoteric tradition for musical instruments:

EARTH--Drums. Makes sense to me.

AIR--Wind instruments. Another no-brainer...although I didn't see anything that specified whether that's woodwinds or brass instruments. I suppose it's meant to include both?

WATER--Metal percussives (bells, cymbals, gongs, chimes, tambourine, triangle...). Not as intuitive, but I can go with it.

FIRE--String instruments. What?

I don't get that last one at all, except for by exclusion (everything else was taken). Why violins/cellos/guitars/harps for fire? Further, in the context of a large-scale ritual, the other 3 all involve sounds that will carry a great distance; strings, not so much. So why strings?

And WTF is up with fire?

The first thing that popped into my mind, as a former violin player, is the friction between the string and the bow.

Not saying that's a solid reason.

What kind of instrument do you think would be better for fire?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible

Sefiru

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Location: In the walls
  • Posts: 2204
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 574
    • View Profile
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2021, 05:53:32 pm »
What kind of instrument do you think would be better for fire?

I would think brass instruments for fire (because metalworking). Woodwinds for air.

My first thought for strings would be water, especially harps, because of the flowing sounds they make (or in some cases of plucked strings, sound like raindrops).

PerditaPickle

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2015
  • Location: UK
  • Posts: 1642
  • Country: england
  • Total likes: 422
  • It's all metta - at least, I believe it should be
    • View Profile
    • Portrait of Perpetual Perplexity
  • Religion: Druid-ish
  • Preferred Pronouns: She/her/hers
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2021, 07:33:40 am »
A secure connection can be made just by adding 's' to 'http' (thus, 'https'), and (as is not always the case when converting to the secure https!) the site still appears and functions. Or, here is the secure clickylink.

Ah thanks.

I'm torn between supporting this company and going for a (much!) cheaper model I've seen advertised elsewhere -- it'd be a risk because the cheaper ones may be inferior quality, but then again I cannot justify spending the amount charged by tonguedrum.co.uk.  Ah well, on the wish list it goes.
“Radiate boundless love towards the entire world — above, below, and across — unhindered, without ill will, without enmity.” – The Buddha
(From the Metta Sutta)

My Portrait of Perpetual Perplexity blog

PerditaPickle

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2015
  • Location: UK
  • Posts: 1642
  • Country: england
  • Total likes: 422
  • It's all metta - at least, I believe it should be
    • View Profile
    • Portrait of Perpetual Perplexity
  • Religion: Druid-ish
  • Preferred Pronouns: She/her/hers
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2021, 03:38:06 pm »
My first thought for strings would be water, especially harps, because of the flowing sounds they make (or in some cases of plucked strings, sound like raindrops).

Ah yes, fair point.
“Radiate boundless love towards the entire world — above, below, and across — unhindered, without ill will, without enmity.” – The Buddha
(From the Metta Sutta)

My Portrait of Perpetual Perplexity blog

Sefiru

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Location: In the walls
  • Posts: 2204
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 574
    • View Profile
Re: Elements & Instruments
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2021, 06:15:03 pm »
After doing some digging online, it seems the following correspondences are usually assigned to the four classical elements in Western esoteric tradition for musical instruments:

Not an *elemental* correspondence exactly, but I often think I would like to have an F# bell. Because reasons.  ;D

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
6 Replies
10635 Views
Last post September 07, 2013, 10:06:25 pm
by Lydia
5 Replies
5352 Views
Last post July 24, 2011, 09:32:41 am
by hlewagastir
17 Replies
6532 Views
Last post January 17, 2012, 09:19:41 pm
by Shadow
0 Replies
1333 Views
Last post October 25, 2011, 02:19:18 pm
by Tamina
3 Replies
3235 Views
Last post November 18, 2011, 11:11:06 am
by Jenett

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 21
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal