collapse

Author Topic: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?  (Read 6004 times)

yewberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1775
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2012, 12:48:16 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;74899
If it's true, then this is an unspeakably horrible universe.


I hate high-fives.  But I kinda want to engage in one right now.

Brina

GoldenSiren

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 75
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2012, 10:27:06 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;74943
I hate high-fives.  But I kinda want to engage in one right now.

Brina

 
:eek:
. . .
Wow. That wasn't where my line of thinking went at all when I mentioned that theory. But I can definitely see where everyone is coming from. . .

I personally was thinking about it because I actually found comfort from the theory. See, I kind of have an "Old Soul mentality" when it comes to life. I'm young, but very world-weary in a lot of areas. So a lot of the time I'm just like *sigh* "Why did this happen? Wait never mind, it's how the world works. Cruel. Yay" (not actually lol I'm usually more serious than that). When I heard my friend talk about this, instead of taking it in a "YOU'RE A JERKASS HOW CAN YOU SAY I CHOSE THIS HELLHOLE OF A LIFE FOR MYSELF!!!! blah blah blah, yell yell yell, yadda yadda yadda" (not to say some aren't justified in feeling that way.) I took it more like "Ahhh. Makes sense." Not because it's like "I don't have to do anything because I chose this life and that's just how it goes, ya know", but because I can honestly SEE myself doing this. I could easily see myself going through one lifetime of challenges and be all "Well, that was interesting. Lets crank it up a few notches and see what happens!!! :D: " Just because that's who I am as a person. My personality. What my soul is like.

Really, I wasn't even considering using that as an excuse for other people's misfortunes. That would make me one hell of an asshat if I thought that, no? I mentioned it simply because a) it popped in my mind, and b) I thought it was an interesting thing to consider (but MORE in the sense of, how do I explain this. . . if this relates to your own personality, would you see your reincarnating soul doing something along those lines, sort of way. Not in a "passing the blame, you put this on yourself" condescending not-my-problem sort of way)
. . .
Does that make any sense at all? Or am I just blabbering?
Déjà Moo
/ˌdāZHä ˈmo͞o/
noun

The feeling that you\'ve already heard this bull before :lub:

Siren

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 106
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2012, 10:26:15 am »
Quote from: GoldenSiren;74979
:eek:
Really, I wasn't even considering using that as an excuse for other people's misfortunes. That would make me one hell of an asshat if I thought that, no? I mentioned it simply because a) it popped in my mind, and b) I thought it was an interesting thing to consider (but MORE in the sense of, how do I explain this. . . if this relates to your own personality, would you see your reincarnating soul doing something along those lines, sort of way. Not in a "passing the blame, you put this on yourself" condescending not-my-problem sort of way)
. . .
Does that make any sense at all? Or am I just blabbering?


It does. I think it's fine if you use it as a personal comforting thing. The jerkass thing would be to try to force the idea on other people while they were suffering. About 10-15 years ago there was even a hideous email forward going around that put a nasty racial and class spin on it--the email theorized that people in poor parts of the world were newer souls who had to go through these lessons in basic survival first, before they could graduate to living comfortable lives and learning more highfalutin lessons. Yes, all of us sitting comfortably at our computers reading the email could, supposedly, absolve ourselves of any guilt about living a more privileged life than most of the world. They're just newer souls, you see! And obviously we must have taken our turn in that kind of life too, and now we're evolved past that! :rolleye::

I've also found this article cathartic. http://www.juliaingram.com/Common_Ground.html

BunnyMaz

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 122
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2012, 11:52:28 am »
Quote from: GoldenSiren;74979
:eek:
. . .
Wow. That wasn't where my line of thinking went at all when I mentioned that theory. But I can definitely see where everyone is coming from. . .

I personally was thinking about it because I actually found comfort from the theory. See, I kind of have an "Old Soul mentality" when it comes to life. I'm young, but very world-weary in a lot of areas. So a lot of the time I'm just like *sigh* "Why did this happen? Wait never mind, it's how the world works. Cruel. Yay" (not actually lol I'm usually more serious than that). When I heard my friend talk about this, instead of taking it in a "YOU'RE A JERKASS HOW CAN YOU SAY I CHOSE THIS HELLHOLE OF A LIFE FOR MYSELF!!!! blah blah blah, yell yell yell, yadda yadda yadda" (not to say some aren't justified in feeling that way.) I took it more like "Ahhh. Makes sense." Not because it's like "I don't have to do anything because I chose this life and that's just how it goes, ya know", but because I can honestly SEE myself doing this. I could easily see myself going through one lifetime of challenges and be all "Well, that was interesting. Lets crank it up a few notches and see what happens!!! :D: " Just because that's who I am as a person. My personality. What my soul is like.

Really, I wasn't even considering using that as an excuse for other people's misfortunes. That would make me one hell of an asshat if I thought that, no? I mentioned it simply because a) it popped in my mind, and b) I thought it was an interesting thing to consider (but MORE in the sense of, how do I explain this. . . if this relates to your own personality, would you see your reincarnating soul doing something along those lines, sort of way. Not in a "passing the blame, you put this on yourself" condescending not-my-problem sort of way)
. . .
Does that make any sense at all? Or am I just blabbering?

 
I think how you take that particular theory really does depend on a lot of factors.  For me, I don't like it.  A past therapist tried to use a variation of it to "help" me, and the end result was I spent part of the last 2 years trying to rebuild my basic sense of self and re-recover from the misplaced childhood guilt I'd previously managed to work past.

The idea that I chose my various experiences with adult and childhood sexual assault, my mental health problems, my repeated issues with unemployment and poverty, when I'm sitting here at times raging at my sense of utter helplessness and despair is... not helpful.  I did NOT choose these challenges, and to suggest I did just feels like more of the same victim blaming that mentally ill people, unemployed people, poor people and sexual assault victims already get heaped on them.  It also feels a little like that old, hateful folk myth that people born with disabilities got them because they did something bad in a previous life.

Of course that doesn't mean you intend it that way, and if the concept brings you peace then that's all well and good.  Personally, I feel more peace when I feel reassured that I'm not to blame for what's happened to me, and when I can parse the problems I did contribute to - and can therefore work to change for the future - and the things I did not contribute to - and can merely accept.

yewberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1775
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2012, 02:24:32 pm »
Quote from: Siren;79652
I've also found this article cathartic. http://www.juliaingram.com/Common_Ground.html

 
Yeah...kinda still not buying it.  Because this:

Quote
Gen Lingpur agrees. In her role as a spiritual teacher in a Buddhist community, she finds it appropriate to introduce concepts like karma while leading her students to a deeper understanding of the spiritual belief that there are no accidents, no victims. But it’s also a question of intention, context, and the nature of the relationship. Spiritual teachings can be easily vulgarized and misapplied.


I don't understand "there are no accidents, no victims" as I'm a big believer in both.  I can't misapply "Awful shit happens...how can I help?"  For me it's a far more compelling call to unqualified compassion because there's nothing between me and the object of my compassion.

I've talked about my issues with karma, especially in a Buddhist context where compassion is supposed to be the focus.  But I've never gotten past the implied pettiness of the universe, the bureaucratic tit-for-tat.  I understand the craving for order, but I've seen nothing to suggest it exists as a governing force.  I have nothing against Buddhism (any more than I have against any other religion/spiritual philosophy), but there are definite reasons I'm not an adherent.

Brina

Siren

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 106
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2012, 02:42:04 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;79668
Yeah...kinda still not buying it.  Because this:



I don't understand "there are no accidents, no victims" as I'm a big believer in both.  I can't misapply "Awful shit happens...how can I help?"  For me it's a far more compelling call to unqualified compassion because there's nothing between me and the object of my compassion.

I've talked about my issues with karma, especially in a Buddhist context where compassion is supposed to be the focus.  But I've never gotten past the implied pettiness of the universe, the bureaucratic tit-for-tat.  I understand the craving for order, but I've seen nothing to suggest it exists as a governing force.  I have nothing against Buddhism (any more than I have against any other religion/spiritual philosophy), but there are definite reasons I'm not an adherent.

Brina


But in that specific case, it's another example where the person is only applying it to her own life (and teaching it to her own students, with a lot of groundwork laid first). She specifically says she doesn't preach it to people outside her belief system. I disagree with it pretty strongly, but she can believe it for her own purposes all she wants. Just as long as she's not flippantly preaching it to everyone she meets, regardless of whether they share her belief system, which is what a lot of New Age Bullies do.

Vitkyng

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 105
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2012, 04:43:13 pm »
X
Quote from: GoldenSiren;74979

. . .
Does that make any sense at all? Or am I just blabbering?


It does make sense, and I could see how some people may find such a belief comforting to help them deal with their difficulties.

I, however, refuse to believe that I would be so cruel as to inflict upon myself the horrible crap I've had to face in this lifetime. From childhood mental and physical abuse, to diseases and disorders, to becoming disabled, to suggest to me that I chose any of it is to chose to endanger your own well being. I might be nice and just never speak to you again, or I might break your nose.

Basically the only choice I believe I have in the matter is how I respond to tragedy. Do I let it get the better of me or do I struggle on and live the best life I can with the cards I am dealt?

If such a belief allows you to cope with the difficulties that have been put in your path, great, but to expect others to believe the same is wrong.

yewberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1775
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2012, 01:53:34 am »
Quote from: Siren;79670
But in that specific case, it's another example where the person is only applying it to her own life (and teaching it to her own students, with a lot of groundwork laid first). She specifically says she doesn't preach it to people outside her belief system. I disagree with it pretty strongly, but she can believe it for her own purposes all she wants. Just as long as she's not flippantly preaching it to everyone she meets, regardless of whether they share her belief system, which is what a lot of New Age Bullies do.


Oh, I agree.  I just find the fact that she thinks that way as problematic, even if her reaction is compassionate.  If I found out my counselor believed in Eastern-style karma, I might not be inclined to continue with her.  I'd rather work with someone who believes as I do:  that shit happens.  Even if they both had similar approaches to advice and treatment.

Brina

BunnyMaz

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 122
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2012, 09:24:17 am »
Quote from: yewberry;79721
Oh, I agree.  I just find the fact that she thinks that way as problematic, even if her reaction is compassionate.  If I found out my counselor believed in Eastern-style karma, I might not be inclined to continue with her.  I'd rather work with someone who believes as I do:  that shit happens.  Even if they both had similar approaches to advice and treatment.

Brina

 
Agreed, if only because the therapist I was seeing definitely didn't help me.  Then again, it kind of weirded me out that she offered me spiritual books to read in the first place... kind of felt like she had an agenda, especially as we hadn't discussed faith in our talks previously.  Possibly a therapist who had such beliefs but was able to keep them separate from their work might be okay... in which case I wouldn't expect to ever find out what their beliefs were to begin with.

That said, isn't part of the core of CBT the idea that we have infinite power to change ourselves, or that deep down we all just need enough will power to deal with stuff?  Seems like the concepts are intertwined.  Since CBT is the trendy thing right now, it's hard to find therapy that doesn't focus on that idea.

Waldhexe

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Essen
  • Posts: 684
  • Country: de
  • Total likes: 46
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Druidry
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/her
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2012, 03:09:00 pm »
Quote from: BunnyMaz;79738
That said, isn't part of the core of CBT the idea that we have infinite power to change ourselves, or that deep down we all just need enough will power to deal with stuff?  Seems like the concepts are intertwined.  Since CBT is the trendy thing right now, it's hard to find therapy that doesn't focus on that idea.

I'm no expert on CBT, but I think learning how to live daily with your portion of shit is different than a spiritual explanation of why you have your portion of shit. *scratching head*

BunnyMaz

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 122
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2012, 03:24:49 pm »
Quote from: Waldhexe;79759
I'm no expert on CBT, but I think learning how to live daily with your portion of shit is different than a spiritual explanation of why you have your portion of shit. *scratching head*

 
Ah... maybe I've just had terrible therapists, then.  Because it always felt like either they were saying everything was my fault, or that I just needed to "try harder" to make it all go away, or seemed to encourage fluffy kittens-and-rainbows denial of reality. O_o

Waldhexe

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Essen
  • Posts: 684
  • Country: de
  • Total likes: 46
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Druidry
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/her
Re: Ancestors who don't deserve honoring?
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2012, 03:40:08 pm »
Quote from: BunnyMaz;79761
Ah... maybe I've just had terrible therapists, then.  Because it always felt like either they were saying everything was my fault, or that I just needed to "try harder" to make it all go away, or seemed to encourage fluffy kittens-and-rainbows denial of reality. O_o

That really sounds like terrible therapists!

I had the impression discussing a problem with a therapist usually goes like:

1. How does the problem make me feel?
2. Oh, that's really shit.
3. How am I dealing with the problem?
4. How does my way of dealing does make me feel?
5. The bad parts of that are really bad.
6. Can I think of a better way to deal with my problem?
7. How would that feel?
8. How can I really make that happen step by step?
etc.

No idea if that's how a counselling session should go, just my impression.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
9 Replies
3504 Views
Last post March 31, 2012, 10:32:57 pm
by Zeno
4 Replies
727 Views
Last post July 16, 2013, 09:55:16 am
by ALiteraryLady
6 Replies
1063 Views
Last post July 20, 2014, 05:13:47 pm
by BrighidsAura
4 Replies
1343 Views
Last post February 16, 2016, 12:20:32 am
by unveiledartist
8 Replies
719 Views
Last post December 30, 2017, 12:23:35 am
by Riothamus12

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 48
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 2
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Senior Staff:
Darkhawk

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Reserve Staff:
Aisling

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall