"Build Us a Temple"

[Vale]

I think Glastonbury is a special animal anyway, .

It is indeed -  but I thought it might spark off a few ideas for LWM.

Personally I don't like Glastonbury at all.  I  pick up  some rather dark undercurrents below the neopagan froth and the "witchy" tourist tat. The Abbey is nice though, lovely atmosphere there.

The Newport one is in a much less pagan friendly area though, probably more typical.

One problem here in the UK is actually getting planning permission. The neighbours tend to rather freak out and that can be a real problem.

[Tana]

It is indeed -  but I thought it might spark off a few ideas for LWM.

Personally I don't like Glastonbury at all.  I  pick up  some rather dark undercurrents below the neopagan froth and the "witchy" tourist tat. The Abbey is nice though, lovely atmosphere there.

The Newport one is in a much less pagan friendly area though, probably more typical.

One problem here in the UK is actually getting planning permission. The neighbours tend to rather freak out and that can be a real problem.

I just said to SO the other day, that I really, really like to sight-see all the crazy in Glastonbury someday.

And I think the neighbours will most likely freak out everywhere, when they hear 'pagan' - 'witch' - 'temple' - 'ritual'. Would evoke some good ole orgy/children sacrifice/devil worship pictures for most, I guess.

[Darkhawk]

But it's even more complicated than that for those of us who follow less-well-known deities, or (as in my case) deities who don't match up to recorded names, or (the other big complication for a lot of more trad Craft folk), deities whose identifying features are oathbound.

 
Or, hell, deities whose veneration is politically complicated in modern paganism.

I mean.  I did do a Beltaine ritual last weekend.  And at that ritual were included people who are dedicated to or follow in some way:

Set
Baphomet
Loki
Lilith
The Whore of Babylon

We also had a side conversation about whether or not various people present were Satanists.  (Though that came about because one person commented that he was being called a devil-worshipper for teaching yoga classes, so it was a bit flippant.)

And that's just people I talked to (or, uh, was).  And of these I have encountered people who have insisted that some fraction are not entities of sufficient god-status to venerate, are are Bad Powers whose worship should be avoided, or, well, some people are unwilling to break bread with people who honor them.

And at some point there's politics involved - which deities are included, who will be offended by their inclusion, whether or not that creates strife in the community sufficient to destroy the potential support base...

[Vale]

I just said to SO the other day, that I really, really like to sight-see all the crazy in Glastonbury someday.

Well it is good for that - seeing someone in full  ( purple!) ritual robes buying his groceries in the supermarket is quite something and not easily wiped from memory!

Mostly though it is tourists and more tourists...Some bedecked in enough silver pentacles to open a shop and others just there to gawk. It is surprisingly hopeless though for supplies other than the newish Botanica which ihas some very interesting things for the real witchy folk.

If you do make it over give me a shout and I'll brave the inevitable migraine  the place gives me and show you around!

[Tana]

If you do make it over give me a shout and I'll brave the inevitable migraine  the place gives me and show you around!

 
Deal!
Or we can meet someplace that won't make your head explode for lunch or a coffee.

(The Botanica would be in fact interesting, tho.)

[Katefox]

I think I said this last time the topic came around, but I keep being more and more convinced that what we need for community space in the Pagan community is not ritual space, is not temple space, is not religious space - but community space. Comfy chairs. A coffee shop or something of the kind that provides ongoing income that supports the rent/upkeep on the larger spaces.

And I think that we need to have the community spaces before we build the communal temple spaces - at least any that are beyond something individuals or very small numbers of people provide as a labour of love (i.e. not needing to be self-supporting financially.)

 
I have to say, for me, this sort of things sounds more interesting than a Temple, by far.  Any Gods represented in such a Temple are not ones I worship (though that could well change in the future, I suppose), so the likelihood of me visiting such a place more than once (out of curiousity), is slim to none.

But a place where I could go just to meet, and hang out with other Pagans, that's something I'd be interested in.  The Cauldron's great, but somewhere I could go to have real-life Pagan discussions would be pretty sweet, too.  Bonus points if it had a Pagan library I could borrow things from.

[Maps]

Bonus points if it had a Pagan library I could borrow things from.

 
Ever the entrepreneurial Cap, I've considered opening a bookstore that caters less to the Wiccish/Nuage crowd and more to the polytheist/recon crowd... basically a mythology and anthropology store/coffee shop, maybe with a garden patio out back or something.

But a library stocked with all manner of out-of-print books would have me frothing at the mouth too. Though both are probably totally unfeasible... sigh.

[Rhyshadow]

I think I may have just seen something the other day about them deciding to close? I'm sure there are business lessons to be learned from that.

 
I was just there last night and yes, they will be closing sometime this month.

Not a matter of business lessons, a matter of the support of the local community not being enough for things like rent on the building and such.

Such a shame to lose a resource like this, and I know the recently elected president must be feeling down about it - she's an old friend and my own prayers last night included her - hopefully she can find something to fill that void.

[monsnoleedra]

Ever the entrepreneurial Cap, I've considered opening a bookstore that caters less to the Wiccish/Nuage crowd and more to the polytheist/recon crowd... basically a mythology and anthropology store/coffee shop, maybe with a garden patio out back or something.

But a library stocked with all manner of out-of-print books would have me frothing at the mouth too. Though both are probably totally unfeasible... sigh.

The problem there is all of those out of print books or rarities might just grow legs and walk away.  People would say that would never happen but it happens all the time at public libraries or even book stores.  Many placs going so far as to have enclosed areas that a book can not be removed from or one has to request them then only for short periods of time.  Yet all that usually requires more staff or specialized staff to carefor them and process requests.

That doesn't even touch upon the just having to have a certain page so its torn from the books.  Yep, seen that one a number of times.  Heck in many ways its even encouraged or condoned in the modern media as it seems to be a common occurance in many movies.

[Jenett]

The problem there is all of those out of print books or rarities might just grow legs and walk away.  People would say that would never happen but it happens all the time at public libraries or even book stores.  Many placs going so far as to have enclosed areas that a book can not be removed from or one has to request them then only for short periods of time.  Yet all that usually requires more staff or specialized staff to carefor them and process requests.

 
There are some possible solutions to that - the MIT Science Fiction Society Library has a circulating collection (in their second room, or it used to be), and a reference collection in their main room. Someone always has to be in there when it's open anyway to keep an eye on the place/handle circulation/etc. anyway, so extra supervision isn't a huge problem.

(There are also archives-type solutions where you have to demonstrate cluefulness beforehand: generally in those cases, people start with limited access (a book at a time, for limited time periods, with someone from the staff nearby) but as they demonstrate they're handling the materials appropriately, they may get a bit more freedom (longer periods, a more private/quieter space to work, etc.))

You're right that it complicates things, but this is something most library staff figure out how to handle fairly quickly on the professional side, and it's not an entirely unsolved problem.

[monsnoleedra]

There are some possible solutions to that - the MIT Science Fiction Society Library has a circulating collection (in their second room, or it used to be), and a reference collection in their main room. Someone always has to be in there when it's open anyway to keep an eye on the place/handle circulation/etc. anyway, so extra supervision isn't a huge problem.

(There are also archives-type solutions where you have to demonstrate cluefulness beforehand: generally in those cases, people start with limited access (a book at a time, for limited time periods, with someone from the staff nearby) but as they demonstrate they're handling the materials appropriately, they may get a bit more freedom (longer periods, a more private/quieter space to work, etc.))

You're right that it complicates things, but this is something most library staff figure out how to handle fairly quickly on the professional side, and it's not an entirely unsolved problem.

Oh I agree there are solutions that can be applied to make it work.  I would also agree that hiring someone trained in library service would be the best bet to oversee such a place.  I only have a very basic passing of knowledge of library services so couldn't even begin to properly or knowledgably speak on those aspects.

Though as an aside discussion I wonder what books would be considered as prime resources for such a library?  Though depending upon the age of said books I can only imagine the degree one would have to go to in order to keep it a clean room and temperature / oxygen controlled.  I've been to places where the white gloves literly come out to touch certain books to keep the body oil off of them.  It's a pain at times but in the end its worth it I think.

[sailor]

It's an interesting almost-irony, I think.

The reconstructionist religions actually do have a theoretical use for large ritual space, because in historical times they actually had large public rituals.  They just don't have the population to do that sort of thing in most places.

Craft religions in most formats are explicitly small-group oriented, and thus unlikely to have space needs that expand much beyond a living room all that often.

Now that I've thought about it, I suspect that this is another serious business plan problem.  Reconstructionist types aren't going to be interested in yet another Wiccish public ritual.  Organised Craft people are likely to be wanting to do things within their tradition's small group format primarily, and only secondarily do more generic larger groups (as Jenett has so ably described).  Which means that the primary population that would be looking for dedicated public ritual is composed of the more casual people who are just looking for a congregation, new people who have not found a group to join, and solitaries who have an occasional 'I want to see people' itch.

None of these populations are going to provide a stable income flow.

 
A very valid point.  

Solutions include recon religions stepping up to use the space despite it being less convenient than doing it at home. Think of it as recruitment among the interested.

And / or radically changing how the wiccanish community does it rituals and organizes it groups.

[DashesAgainst]

Dear fellow Caudronites,
This time She delivered to me, in no unclear terms, one short message; "build Us a Temple".

I don't have much to contribute to this, other than to say that I really admire your passion & resolve.  

I wish you much success with this project - no doubt, your effort alone will greatly please the gods.

[sailor]

Oh I agree there are solutions that can be applied to make it work.  I would also agree that hiring someone trained in library service would be the best bet to oversee such a place.  I only have a very basic passing of knowledge of library services so couldn't even begin to properly or knowledgably speak on those aspects.

Though as an aside discussion I wonder what books would be considered as prime resources for such a library?  Though depending upon the age of said books I can only imagine the degree one would have to go to in order to keep it a clean room and temperature / oxygen controlled.  I've been to places where the white gloves literly come out to touch certain books to keep the body oil off of them.  It's a pain at times but in the end its worth it I think.

 
This one raises my eyebrows. Going to have to ask just how hard is it to run such a service. Does one really need somebody with a degree (Masters, since I don't think there is a bachalor's level version) in library science?  

And I'd think any books that require special handling (gloves, humidity control, etc) are not going to be in a place that also serves coffee and acts as a social meeting place.

[monsnoleedra]

This one raises my eyebrows. Going to have to ask just how hard is it to run such a service. Does one really need somebody with a degree (Masters, since I don't think there is a bachalor's level version) in library science?  

And I'd think any books that require special handling (gloves, humidity control, etc) are not going to be in a place that also serves coffee and acts as a social meeting place.

Truthfully I can't speak from experience.  However I have a cousin who holds a degree in library services and is head librarian at a local library.  Based upon what she has said about proper handling, storage and processing versus improper it seems to be quite an issue.

I would assume, though we all known what ass-u-me means I suppose, that if one is only going to have the latest paperback books then it might not require as much.  Yet assuming one wanted to avoid re-purchasing the books every couple of years a place would go for hardback and multiple copies of said books.

The level of books was based upon what MAPS said

But a library stocked with all manner of out-of-print books would have me frothing at the mouth too. Though both are probably totally unfeasible... sigh.

As such I would not think a library would have a coffee clutch setting something like that i'd think would be in a Barnes & Nobles type setting.