collapse
2020 Donation Drive

It's time for our annual Server Donation Drive! We need to raise at least $710 to keep The Cauldron's server online for another year. Please help! Either hit that Paypal button to the right and make a one-time donation in any amount or set up a monthly Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor subscription. You can find more info in this message!

Donations as of 17 September 2020: $535 donated. Only $175 more need! Thank you, donors!


Note: This total is updated manually, usually once a day


* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: "Build Us a Temple"  (Read 8883 times)

Elani Temperance

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 446
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.littlewitchmagazine.com
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2012, 04:05:58 am »
Quote from: sailor;52478
Would a time-share model work for the sabbats?  A group would buy / rent in advance the space for winter solstice for say 4 to 10 years.  They wouldn't necessarily pay for the space in advance, but regular payments each month to ensure they keep their slot(s).  A different group might then buy the Beltaine slot, etc.

 
Thank you Sailor and everyone else who pitched in on this idea. I think it's intriguing and might be completely feasible as a payment plan for the rent. Perhaps for workshops that are held once a month or something; they pay a weekly fee to keep that space available in their regular time slot and all the money goes towards the payment for the room. Say the total fee comes up a 100 euros; they pay it in payments of 25 (or 26 for the fact that the space is reserved) euros and the space is theirs.

Like mentioned in an above post, Wickerman's idea also makes sense to me...
Where I ramble on: Baring the Aegis
Where I try to be coherent: Little Witch magazine
My PaganSquare blog as hosted by Witches & Pagans
Hellenic Polytheistic charity circle Pandora\'s Kharis.

Elani Temperance

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 446
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.littlewitchmagazine.com
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2012, 04:50:45 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;52578
One thing I have not heard addressed is insurance.
 

Yeah, I thought about that too. Honestly, I couldn't tell you what the costs of that would be yet. I'll find out when the plans are ready but you are right, there is a lot to consider on 'behind the scenes' expenses. As said, the financial plan is about as solid as it can be, one week in...

All I can say is that I plan on a biiiiig fence ;)

Quote from: monsnoleedra;52578
Hekate / Hecate and Artemis both took me through a phase of building a temple / shrine / sanctuary / altar to them.  Ran me ragged about it then at the end finally said in a basic way.. "Now you know why we haven't insisted on the old temples / shrines like the old days!"

Temples, Shrines, Sanctuaries fall down or are destroyed but the gods / goddesses live on in the hearts and spirits of thier devotees was their basic answer.


I completely understand where you are coming from and perhaps They are doing this to teach me a specific lesson as well. I am alright with that. Until they do, however, I'm assuming They actually want a Temple...
Where I ramble on: Baring the Aegis
Where I try to be coherent: Little Witch magazine
My PaganSquare blog as hosted by Witches & Pagans
Hellenic Polytheistic charity circle Pandora\'s Kharis.

Elani Temperance

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 446
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.littlewitchmagazine.com
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2012, 04:57:31 am »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;52583
Since the recession here (Ohio, US) several churches have gone under or consolidated and left empty buildings. A distant Buddhist temple relocated from one tiny set of rooms to a good sized church in our area. I think they got a great price given the market. Smart! Here, it is the time to buy, but that changes.

I'm not wishing such a recession to hit your area, but in the next ten years, if one does, maybe hop about and look for already made structures? Just an idea.

 
The recession is everywhere. I've already been looking at abandoned buildings in locations that would fit the bill. At least in the beginning, an existing structure might be easier to work with. I haven't found anything that fits the needs yet but it's on my radar.

Thank you for the help :)
Where I ramble on: Baring the Aegis
Where I try to be coherent: Little Witch magazine
My PaganSquare blog as hosted by Witches & Pagans
Hellenic Polytheistic charity circle Pandora\'s Kharis.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4971
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 872
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2012, 11:15:27 am »
Quote from: LittleWitchMagazine;52774

Would the draw of a public Temple be great enough to draw everyone to it for any ritual they want to do? No, I certainly don't think so. Holidays, initiations, etc, those are things you come to a Temple for.

 
Here's the thing:  I am functionally a solo practitioner right now.  If a site only offers me the same stuff I have at home in terms of space and amenities, I will never use it, not for a holiday, not for anything, because it provides me nothing but the inconvenience and cost of schlepping over there.

I'm not going to be able to celebrate holidays with co-religionists there, because my co-religionists are scattered widely (depending on your definitions, there's 'if they even exist').  The only reason I might go to a, say, Beltaine festival is if I have some other reason to attend, since it's not one of my holidays.  (For example, I was asked to help some people with such a ritual this past weekend, so I went; if I hadn't been part of the ritual, I would have spent the day at home.)

If I got ambitious some day I might try doing a major one of my festivals - if I wanted to do something grand and flashy, if I expected anyone to show up for a festival that they knew nothing about, if the amenities made it plausible to do something meaningful.  But really, it's very unlikely that I will ever be that ambitious - and the only way to even begin to convince me I might want to invest in that possibility is to do the work to build a community that does active ecumenical work, fosters interest in and support for minority paganisms rather than assume that people will just show up for Beltaine, and has a thriving active community that might remotely care.  Because otherwise, my big stuff will be for at most a half-dozen and I'm not going to rent your space for something I can fit in my bedroom.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10229
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 272
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2012, 06:50:46 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;52807
But really, it's very unlikely that I will ever be that ambitious - and the only way to even begin to convince me I might want to invest in that possibility is to do the work to build a community that does active ecumenical work, fosters interest in and support for minority paganisms rather than assume that people will just show up for Beltaine, and has a thriving active community that might remotely care.  Because otherwise, my big stuff will be for at most a half-dozen and I'm not going to rent your space for something I can fit in my bedroom.

I'm in the same corner Darkhawk is in. There aren't enough Hellenic Pagans in my area to fill my spare room so unless there is some type of major pan-Pagan community that doesn't just assume Pagan = Wiccan/Wicca-like, what would be in such a center for me. Given my limited finances, if there's little or nothing in it for me, I am not going to be very interested in investing in something like this. This doesn't mean its a bad idea if there is enough support from others, however.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2012, 09:28:29 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;52807
 But really, it's very unlikely that I will ever be that ambitious - and the only way to even begin to convince me I might want to invest in that possibility is to do the work to build a community that does active ecumenical work, fosters interest in and support for minority paganisms rather than assume that people will just show up for Beltaine, and has a thriving active community that might remotely care.  Because otherwise, my big stuff will be for at most a half-dozen and I'm not going to rent your space for something I can fit in my bedroom.

 
To counter point Randall's post.  

This is an issue of the business plan.  And LMW is probably better off Not trying to cater to you or Randall or similar very small / solitary sub-religions.  Oh, you would be welcome, but don't expect focused programming for your religion.

Focusing on a broader swath of the community will more likely generate the interest and people to have such a center open.  Various flavors of Wicca is likely to work out better.

Maps

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Posts: 703
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2012, 09:31:16 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;52415
the Sacred Paths community center

 
I think I may have just seen something the other day about them deciding to close? I'm sure there are business lessons to be learned from that.

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10229
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 272
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2012, 10:37:41 pm »
Quote from: sailor;52908
This is an issue of the business plan.  And LMW is probably better off Not trying to cater to you or Randall or similar very small / solitary sub-religions.  Oh, you would be welcome, but don't expect focused programming for your religion.

While I would not expect focused programming for a small Pagan religion, I would expect the center to be open to all Pagan religions if they want the support of most Pagans and Pagan religion groups in the area. For example, no "must follow the Wiccan Rede to use" type of stuff while wanting support from non-Wiccans.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free

Elani Temperance

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 446
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.littlewitchmagazine.com
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2012, 05:21:34 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;52807
Here's the thing:  I am functionally a solo practitioner right now.  If a site only offers me the same stuff I have at home in terms of space and amenities, I will never use it, not for a holiday, not for anything, because it provides me nothing but the inconvenience and cost of schlepping over there.


Quote from: RandallS;52881
I'm in the same corner Darkhawk is in.


I think it's safe to say that my main focus won't be on the minority groups within Paganism but this is a public space. If you want to attend a ritual, workshop or simply pray at the statues of your deities, you are absolutely free to do so.

Like Sailor said:

Quote from: sailor;52908
Focusing on a broader swath of the community will more likely generate the interest and people to have such a center open. Various flavors of Wicca is likely to work out better.


Still, I feel I need to get the point across that this will be a Temple

A lot more this:
http://www.myfreewallpapers.net/fantasy/wallpapers/greek-mythology-zeus-temple.jpg

Or this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Abbaye_d%27Orval_-_Church_1.jpg

Than this:
http://www.ci.rosemount.mn.us/vertical/Sites/%7B9EB5E841-C29C-4154-8A28-AC41E049797A%7D/uploads/%7BEBB6F533-DC67-4D8E-8DE9-ED77C60A9791%7D.JPG

A space dedicated to the Gods. A retreat. I'm aiming high here ;)
Where I ramble on: Baring the Aegis
Where I try to be coherent: Little Witch magazine
My PaganSquare blog as hosted by Witches & Pagans
Hellenic Polytheistic charity circle Pandora\'s Kharis.

Elani Temperance

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 446
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.littlewitchmagazine.com
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2012, 05:23:41 am »
Quote from: Maps;52909
I think I may have just seen something the other day about them deciding to close? I'm sure there are business lessons to be learned from that.

 
They did... http://pncminnesota.com/2012/05/01/news-flash-sacred-paths-center-to-close-in-may/
Where I ramble on: Baring the Aegis
Where I try to be coherent: Little Witch magazine
My PaganSquare blog as hosted by Witches & Pagans
Hellenic Polytheistic charity circle Pandora\'s Kharis.

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3327
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 837
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2012, 08:44:33 am »
Quote from: Maps;52909
I think I may have just seen something the other day about them deciding to close? I'm sure there are business lessons to be learned from that.

 
Yep. (And I'm sorry to see that notice - Teisha and Paul are good people, they've tried to make a really serious go of it.)

But it also demonstrates just how hard it is to do. And how much - as I said before - other factors you don't have control over can also impact things. (Like, as I mentioned, major construction on the main road near them that did a number on casual sales traffic. Changes in the larger economy. All that sort of stuff.)
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4971
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 872
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2012, 09:12:54 am »
Quote from: sailor;52908

Focusing on a broader swath of the community will more likely generate the interest and people to have such a center open.  Various flavors of Wicca is likely to work out better.

 
It's an interesting almost-irony, I think.

The reconstructionist religions actually do have a theoretical use for large ritual space, because in historical times they actually had large public rituals.  They just don't have the population to do that sort of thing in most places.

Craft religions in most formats are explicitly small-group oriented, and thus unlikely to have space needs that expand much beyond a living room all that often.

Now that I've thought about it, I suspect that this is another serious business plan problem.  Reconstructionist types aren't going to be interested in yet another Wiccish public ritual.  Organised Craft people are likely to be wanting to do things within their tradition's small group format primarily, and only secondarily do more generic larger groups (as Jenett has so ably described).  Which means that the primary population that would be looking for dedicated public ritual is composed of the more casual people who are just looking for a congregation, new people who have not found a group to join, and solitaries who have an occasional 'I want to see people' itch.

None of these populations are going to provide a stable income flow.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3327
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 837
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2012, 09:45:08 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;52943

Now that I've thought about it, I suspect that this is another serious business plan problem.  Reconstructionist types aren't going to be interested in yet another Wiccish public ritual.  Organised Craft people are likely to be wanting to do things within their tradition's small group format primarily, and only secondarily do more generic larger groups (as Jenett has so ably described).  Which means that the primary population that would be looking for dedicated public ritual is composed of the more casual people who are just looking for a congregation, new people who have not found a group to join, and solitaries who have an occasional 'I want to see people' itch.

None of these populations are going to provide a stable income flow.

 
Thank you for putting that much more coherently than I'd managed.

There's also another complication worth mentioning here, on the temple front: that representing a wide range of deities is always going to be problematic, and pretty much always going to leave people out.

Even the historical temples generally focused on some finite number, not the dozens or hundreds of possibilities from a given culture, after all (or were truly massive temple complexes, which is a whole different scale).

But it's even more complicated than that for those of us who follow less-well-known deities, or (as in my case) deities who don't match up to recorded names, or (the other big complication for a lot of more trad Craft folk), deities whose identifying features are oathbound.

I think I said this last time the topic came around, but I keep being more and more convinced that what we need for community space in the Pagan community is not ritual space, is not temple space, is not religious space - but community space. Comfy chairs. A coffee shop or something of the kind that provides ongoing income that supports the rent/upkeep on the larger spaces.

And I think that we need to have the community spaces before we build the communal temple spaces - at least any that are beyond something individuals or very small numbers of people provide as a labour of love (i.e. not needing to be self-supporting financially.)
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Vale

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 333
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2012, 09:57:54 am »
Quote from: Jenett;52945

And I think that we need to have the community spaces before we build the communal temple spaces - at least any that are beyond something individuals or very small numbers of people provide as a labour of love (i.e. not needing to be self-supporting financially.)


This seems as appropriate quote as any to hang this post on as these temples are community space.

This is the temple a few miles away from me in Glastonbury UK. It seems to have a successful business model but despite its closeness to me I have never visited and am never likely to.

http://www.goddesstemple.co.uk/

I am also aware of another one in Newport  ( South Wales)

 http://www.housemorgain.co.uk/.

Again although it is only about an hour drive from me I have never visited and have no plans to.

Tana

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2295
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2012, 10:01:15 am »
Quote from: Vale;52946

This is the temple a few miles away from me in Glastonbury UK. It seems to have a successful business model but despite its closeness to me I have never visited and am never likely to.


I think Glastonbury is a special animal anyway, isn't it?
What works there, needs not to work someplace else.
\'You had to repay, good or bad. There was more than one type of obligation.
That’s what people never really understood.….Things had to balance.
You couldn’t set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long.
All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.\'
Terry Pratchett \'Lords and Ladies\'

Confuzzled and proud. :p

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
2 Replies
1728 Views
Last post August 29, 2011, 10:12:31 pm
by diana_rajchel
8 Replies
1159 Views
Last post June 13, 2013, 10:52:19 pm
by sailor
17 Replies
1964 Views
Last post April 30, 2014, 11:39:26 pm
by Finn
12 Replies
2071 Views
Last post July 02, 2017, 05:04:37 am
by Ecco
4 Replies
1047 Views
Last post August 19, 2017, 08:55:30 pm
by Eastling

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 41
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 2
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall