collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: "Build Us a Temple"  (Read 8470 times)

Elani Temperance

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 446
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.littlewitchmagazine.com
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 03:45:01 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;52460
Last night my husband and I went put for dinner and as the sun set we watched a Muslim step out of the door across the street and knelt his head to ground in prayer.

Tacitus tolds us that no temples were erected in Europe. Sometimes there was a pole raised or a tree designated in which people would bend their knees and lower their heads.

It can be beautiful, that single moment of acknowledgement. Maybe start with that.

 
Thank you Juniperberry, your post reminds me not to forget the main goal of a Temple; to bring people closer to their faith, however that is. It's a wise lesson and one I will strive to remember.
Where I ramble on: Baring the Aegis
Where I try to be coherent: Little Witch magazine
My PaganSquare blog as hosted by Witches & Pagans
Hellenic Polytheistic charity circle Pandora\'s Kharis.

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3135
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 679
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 07:05:51 am »
Glad to be of help - but a few further comments, because I think figuring out some of these questions is key in figuring out what needs someone's serving. (A lot of what I'm going to say below may sound very finicky - but honestly, I think they're good illustrations of the thought process you need to figure out to create a sustainable space.)

Quote from: LittleWitchMagazine;52469

I would work my ass off for an (on-line) schedule where everyone can reserve certain halls or rooms for a set fee and a specific time. This would ensure privacy for rituals or workshops and leave the Temple open for visits beyond that.


No matter *how* good your scheduling tools are, you can't have people using the same space for private/group/trad specific events at the same time.  

This is one problem that Sacred Paths ran into: if you have three different groups that would all like to do a ritual on the evening of a Sabbat, how do you fit that in? (Given that those three groups all need to accommodate schedules of people who work specific jobs, set-up/take-down, etc.)

In other words, only one group can use a given space, say, on Winter Solstice night between 6-10pm. Everyone else is going to be out of luck. And yet, if you want those groups to rely on using your space so that it's  stable source of support, they *need* to have a predictable way to make sure they can reserve it, use it, etc.

If they can get it some rituals, but not all of them, chances are they're eventually going to settle into a different solution, that does not involve your space.  

It's less complicated for things like initiations, or group classes, or whatever, which can be a bit more flexible - but even there, you'll tend to find some times are in extremely high demand (weekends), and some times aren't (weekday mornings)

Quote
For personal sacrifice... well, I'm not saying to follow the Christian path but they seem to manage pretty well with personal space and prayer in a community domain. It might need a bit adjustment here and there and it will not for everyone but there is something to say for sharing space with others of your faith.


Perhaps.

But here's the thing. Most other Pagans - the *vast* percentage of other Pagans, in fact, save a few dozen people in the world - are not of my particular brand of practice.

I enjoy interacting with other Pagans. I even pay money sometimes to do so, by going to Pagan events where I can (as well as paying money *to run* Pagan events where I can, and doing stuff online, and so on.)

But am I going to pay money on a regular basis so I can do personal work that is far better suited to a private setting (like my home)? Probably not. A business model that relies on my doing so (and on lots of people more or less like me doing so) is going to fail.

I might want that rented space once or twice a year for personal work. Maybe more often if it were a really awesome rentable space that offered options that I couldn't manage at home. (Rentable ritual bath? Yes. Rentable ritual sauna? Yes.  Specific features of geography - a freshwater stream suitable for some kinds of offerings? Yes. But all of those things have substantial maintenance costs for public access.)

Temple room without all my tools and items? Not so much, because a) the Gods I serve are extremely unlikely to be represented and b) the specific tools I use matter to me.

Quote
The whole thing will be wheelchair- and car accessible (to a point, of course) so hauling material won't be so bad. Carts could be provided for the final walk.


Which is lovely to a point - but I figured out a while back that for me to do a ritual in some other space besides my home adds about *two hours* of prep and clean-up work to the process in a way that must be done on a specific timeline. It's got to be a really awesome rentable space for me to want to do that on a regular basis, if I have other spaces available to me (like, say, my own home) that are nearly as good.

(I'm particularly aware of this one because I both spent about half a dozen years doing tote-and-barge Pagan ritual (haul everything in, set it up, haul everything out), and then am finally mostly recovered from two years of really lousy health stuff that has made a big change in how I have to prep and plan for ritual.)

Doing ritual in a space that isn't my home adds planning time (I have to sit down and make sure I have prepped for everything I need - and everything I *might* need. At home, it's likely to just be handy.) It adds packing time (especially if I have fragile or complicated items to pack). And it adds clean-up and unpacking time that must be done on a specific schedule (so that we can get out of the rented space on time - but then there's generally a need to unpack stuff at home, clean it thoroughly, etc. and put it away.)

That's not trivial for my ritual practice. (And that's despite the fact I've deliberately kept my ritual gear small and portable: the group I trained with had two matched rolling suitcases for that, when we were using rented space regularly. I also *really* don't miss packing glassware, which took 20+ minutes every time we did it.)

Plus, there's a factor of "Oh, we can't let this ritual run on too long, because we have to be out of the space by X" that I find I'm really glad to not have to do anymore. At home, if a ritual takes much longer than I'd planned, that's more or less fine (and if it gets really late or I'm unusually tired, almost all the clean-up can be left overnight.

If I knew someone was waiting on us to finish so they could go to bed, or so another group could use the space, that would make a space much less attractive to me - or, more precisely, would mean I'd use it for only occasional rituals where the timeframe and energy needed were pretty predictable, but not make it my main ritual space for group work.

Quote
One thing cán be said for the Dutch Pagan community and that is that, because the pickings are so slim here, people will gladly travel anywhere from one to three hours to reach a workshops space of festival. Even by train or bus and then walk for a good couple of minutes.


Other people, other places, have said this one.

The reality's a bit different, if you talk to places that have kept community centers going. The reality is that you'll get some people who come out. But you'll get a lot more people who come out occasionally - a couple of times a year, for the things they most care about.  (Because, as nifty as an event might be, a couple of hours travel is a tricky thing to fit around kids, or elder care, or a job with non-standard hours, or other interests.)

I'm dealing with that one where I live now - rural Maine, where just about everything other than my small town is at least an hour, and more like 2 hours from me.

As an example: there's a Beltane event next weekend that I've known for months I really need to go to. (It's a great place to meet people in the state community). It's a 2 hour drive from me.

Am I committed to doing that 2 hour drive? Yes, in principle. (Adjusting for the residual exhaustion issues I've mentioned above, so I need to make sure I can safely drive myself there, do stuff, and drive back. My past two weekends have involved 4-5 hour naps at least one day, and I'm going to be out of town the following weekend and need to allow for that, and that makes for some complicated "Can I do reasonably do this?" calculations.)

Do I need to plan it pretty carefully, so that I can go into work on the Monday and be able to have attention/focus/energy to do my job? Also yes.

Am I likely to look at it and go "Um, maybe not" if the weather is sort of lousy - either for driving, or for doing stuff outside on a beach? Also yes. Or if I wake up and feel not ill, but not great, and like a 3 hour nap is probably a better choice if I'm going to function well at work the next week, or make progress on other projects.

(Because here's the other thing: that event will be nice, but it won't satisfy my desire to do ritual in my own tradition. This particular week, I'm doing my own Beltane work tonight and tomorrow night, but if I were doing group work, I might also be balancing tradition work with a group against a public event like that.)

And that's where your problem is for a community center or temple or anything else of the kind: people will make extensive efforts for a very occasional event that they won't make every week, or even every month. If you don't have a solid base that can support the financial and practical needs of a space without extensive travel, you can get in deep trouble pretty fast.

One of the things about community spaces is that people assume it'll continue to be there when they want it - so coming to the things they might have driven to if it'd been a single event becomes a different equation.

Some of your ideas (that I've snipped) are good - but again, you have to think about what's in it for the people you want to have using them. Having vendors pay for rented space is lovely, but there's a limited number of times most vendors who don't already maintain their own storefronts will do that in a given calendar year: they'll have other obligations in other places, and they'll also generally want to diversify where they're selling their items, because after a certain point, everyone in your temple or space who wants their stuff will have bought what they need for now.

From the vendors I've talked to while doing large Pagan events, twice a year is okay. Once a year is just fine. Three or four times a year, with the same basic crowd of people, and they start seeing a much lower return on investment - often to the point that it's not worth hauling their stuff to a location, paying their vendor fee, and taking the weekend away from other things they could be doing. To do multiple events, they need to be sure they're attracting a substantially different group of shoppers who are still going to be interested in what they sell.

(Bookstores can flex this a lot more easily than someone who sells ritual items for a specific type of ritual work, for example.)

None of which is to say there aren't solutions. Just that it's a lot more complicated than "Of course people will come." Because history shows that that's not exactly the case.
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 07:18:41 am »
Quote from: Jenett;52477


No matter *how* good your scheduling tools are, you can't have people using the same space for private/group/trad specific events at the same time.  

This is one problem that Sacred Paths ran into: if you have three different groups that would all like to do a ritual on the evening of a Sabbat, how do you fit that in? (Given that those three groups all need to accommodate schedules of people who work specific jobs, set-up/take-down, etc.)

In other words, only one group can use a given space, say, on Winter Solstice night between 6-10pm. Everyone else is going to be out of luck. And yet, if you want those groups to rely on using your space so that it's  stable source of support, they *need* to have a predictable way to make sure they can reserve it, use it, etc.

If they can get it some rituals, but not all of them, chances are they're eventually going to settle into a different solution, that does not involve your space.  


 
Would a time-share model work for the sabbats?  A group would buy / rent in advance the space for winter solstice for say 4 to 10 years.  They wouldn't necessarily pay for the space in advance, but regular payments each month to ensure they keep their slot(s).  A different group might then buy the Beltaine slot, etc.

Tana

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2295
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 08:31:51 am »
Quote from: sailor;52478
Would a time-share model work for the sabbats?  A group would buy / rent in advance the space for winter solstice for say 4 to 10 years.  They wouldn't necessarily pay for the space in advance, but regular payments each month to ensure they keep their slot(s).  A different group might then buy the Beltaine slot, etc.

 
I can see two problems with this.

First you have to assume that those groups even exist that long and second you still would've only one 'customer' there for that one date and if they cancel or drop out you have an empty space and no money and no-one else who'd jump in on short notice, because they were told 'no sorry Beltane is sold out for the next five years.'

Difficult.

Also I am not sure, how many people would like to pay each month for a space they'll need once a year. Too many insecurities about that. Financial obligations on long-term for things not really necessary is something people like to avoid.
\'You had to repay, good or bad. There was more than one type of obligation.
That’s what people never really understood.….Things had to balance.
You couldn’t set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long.
All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.\'
Terry Pratchett \'Lords and Ladies\'

Confuzzled and proud. :p

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3135
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 679
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 08:42:38 am »
Quote from: sailor;52478
Would a time-share model work for the sabbats?  A group would buy / rent in advance the space for winter solstice for say 4 to 10 years.  They wouldn't necessarily pay for the space in advance, but regular payments each month to ensure they keep their slot(s).  A different group might then buy the Beltaine slot, etc.

 
You'd think, but it's not quite that easy.

As someone who has in the past lead group work, and is gearing up to do it again, here's what I want out of a space if I'm renting it:

1) Advance planning: I want to  be able to tell my group at least 3 months (and 6 or 12 months is better) when our major ritual events are going to be. If we're using rented space, that means sorting out the rental well in advance.

2) By and large, I want most of our ongoing ritual events to be in the same physical space - both for practical reasons (it's a lot less easy for people to be confused about where we're meeting this time: this can suck a huge amount of attention and plannign time that really, I'd rather spend on other things), and for magical ones: repeated use of the same physical space builds up an energy signature that's easier to work into ritual planning, supportive of ongoing work, etc.

3) It's possible to have one ritual that's in a different space (even when we were renting, in the group I trained with, our Samhain was almost always in a different space, partly to accomodate scheduling - we'd be there from around 4pm to 2am, between set-up and tear-down, and a long ritual - and partly to accomodate a larger space than we usually needed.)

But the times those are likely to be the case are also the times *other* people might particularly want such spaces (Samhain, for example.)

4) The complication of small group work is that you don't have a lot of people to spread expenses among.

I have a reasonably paid job, relative to my area, and I'd be able to pay a single ritual's rental (up to, say, $100 or so) out of pocket with a little advance notice. But I wouldn't be able to do, say, six months worth of reservations out of pocket nearly as easily, without either several months to get ahead on savings, or being very sure group members would chip in reliably.

5) From the space owner's perspective: some Pagan groups are quite stable, year to year. Others come and go. So you're stuck with "do you require payment up front for 3 or 6 months at a time" or do you deal with maybe having a group bail on you, when you can't easily rebook a space if they cancel. (And so, you're out the rental fee entirely..)

And again, see above about point 4 - there are a lot of small groups where getting that next ritual's rental fee together is fine, but getting a lump sum for 6 months at a time is more complicated. (More specifically, it takes a particular kind of coordination that lots of people turn out not to be good at or want to do.)

Short answer: a time-share model of one ritual a year would be almost entirely uninteresting to me, unless what was on offer was something far beyond what most shared ritual spaces manage to offer.

I'm certainly not the only person doing  group stuff out there - but I've heard the same thing from a lot of people I know doing group work.

(Now, like I said: space to hold a weekend long workshop that's self-contained? That's a lot more interesting for me for rented space. Or space for weekend-long or week-long specific events that aren't tied to ritual year. But those things aren't necessarily enough to sustain a space's finances, and they don't tend to build a community of people who are connected to maintaining the physical space in energetic and in practical terms day to day and week to week.)
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4856
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 737
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 10:08:43 am »
Quote from: Jenett;52493

(Now, like I said: space to hold a weekend long workshop that's self-contained? That's a lot more interesting for me for rented space. Or space for weekend-long or week-long specific events that aren't tied to ritual year. But those things aren't necessarily enough to sustain a space's finances, and they don't tend to build a community of people who are connected to maintaining the physical space in energetic and in practical terms day to day and week to week.)

 
The people I know who do have this kind of space on offer?  They live there.  It's their home.  They bought a lot of land somewhere reasonably remote (in part because that's where a lot of land is affordable), renovated the old barn into a dormitory, and are available for weekend workshops and longer things.

But the thing is: it's their home.  If nobody comes and does workshops, they're still having their day job which pays the mortgage and buys the food that they don't grow.  It is, so far as I know, sustainable at the level of 'this is our home and we're paying the mortgage', and everything else is extra, and something that they have chosen to make available.

And that space is not their personal home, though they will do workshops in their personal home when that's appropriate.  Big stuff happens up at the paddock.  On-site housing is mostly in the barn (though personal friends or people with need may be able to get space to bunk down in the house).  They planned things so that they were doing something liveable as well as useful to community.

It's a great space, and they're great people, and they did a lot of work to do it.  But first and foremost it is their home.

(Jenett, I know I've mentioned these folks to you, as other-New-Englanders, though they are despite birds-eye I think more remote from you than from me.)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Holdasown

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Location: West Virginia
  • Posts: 398
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 7
    • View Profile
    • Blog
  • Religion: Norse/Germanic Polytheists
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2012, 11:14:38 am »
Quote from: LittleWitchMagazine;52390
Dear fellow Caudronites,


Have you considered putting ads in the paper to form some sort of Pagan board? Letting those you'll be serving what your intent is. They may have resources for you and you never who else has been "called" to start working on this too.

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 04:59:59 pm »
Quote from: Tana;52491
I can see two problems with this.

First you have to assume that those groups even exist that long and second you still would've only one 'customer' there for that one date and if they cancel or drop out you have an empty space and no money and no-one else who'd jump in on short notice, because they were told 'no sorry Beltane is sold out for the next five years.'

Difficult.

Also I am not sure, how many people would like to pay each month for a space they'll need once a year. Too many insecurities about that. Financial obligations on long-term for things not really necessary is something people like to avoid.

 
I think you and Jennet mis-understood my point with regards to the costs and fees.

To use Jenett's $100 rental fee (let's up to $120 for simple math), the group would be paying $10 a month each month, in advance, for the use of the space the coming December.

It's not all that different than having the group save up for the rental, but at least they know so long as they pay the fee each month the space is theirs for next few years.

Jenett raised a lot more other issues that I"ll respond to in her post at my next coffee break.

monsnoleedra

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 957
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 05:45:09 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;52497
..


One thing I have not heard addressed is insurance.  When you start dealing with the public and are going to provide some sort of space for their usage you start getting into some potentially real catastrophic issues.  Then depending upon the remotness of the place you also have to factor in the maintenance costs for things above and beyond normal wear and tear.

When it's a person's private home and property you have one set of issues since your basically putting your home up should anything happen.  Sure, I suppose you might be able to have all the users sign a form releasing you from any and all legal obligations should they expereince some form of injury and or death while attending thier ritual / ceremony on your property.  Yet I've also heard of groups that sign and then sue because something happened.

A public area is even worse in that regard.  I looked into setting up a retreat type area with a couple hundred acres of land.  That was costly enough, then add I desired a large pond or small lake and the price went up again, accidental drowning for instance.

Since it would also be open to the use of children you had to have other things that might not otherwise be required for adults only.  Then expense wise you rent it out on X number of days but have to charge sufficiently to cover operating cost for everyday when the place is not being utilized but you still need to maintain it.  Factor in the difference in user request for the various seasons and calculate the probability of weather negatively impacting upon the area given ones region.

Plus you really can't afford to return all the depost money but have to prorate it based upon whose fault it was a party could not make it.  If not prorate you have to have a provision in the contract which explicity states what conditions will be seen as legitimate reasons for their failure to show and how much you as the owner / propritor will return.

Many people do not consider it but you also have to look at vandalism of the property.  Here in the States for instance we still have churchs and such burnd to the ground because people disagree with some facet of the church.  Now consider that your going to create a temple like space which is sure to cause unease depending upon where you make it.  Your going to have to advertise your place so its not like it will pass unnoticed as people come in as various groups.

Then their is the issue of who and how offerings, libations, etc will be handled and processed prior to, during and afterwards.  In essence who will clean up and where will all the refuge be dumped afterwards? If you've time shared the place and fire is an element of a practice where can they dump the hot coals so they can clear your rented space for the next party.  

That doesn't even touch upon bathroom facilities and potential sewer / water needs.  After all can't really have fire's without the proper safety material to control it should it get out of hand.

Hekate / Hecate and Artemis both took me through a phase of building a temple / shrine / sanctuary / altar to them.  Ran me ragged about it then at the end finally said in a basic way.. "Now you know why we haven't insisted on the old temples / shrines like the old days!"

Temples, Shrines, Sanctuaries fall down or are destroyed but the gods / goddesses live on in the hearts and spirits of thier devotees was their basic answer.

Annie Roonie

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 915
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 05:59:13 pm »
Quote from: LittleWitchMagazine;52390
Dear fellow Caudronites,

I realize we don't know each other long or well, and that is why this has taken so long to write. I need your help. Last week, I was Called to perform ritual for Hekate / Hecate. I've been Called to do this before, usually in Her capacity as a messenger of the Gods. It always means something life changing is about to happen. This time She delivered to me, in no unclear terms, one short message; "build Us a Temple".

I want to build this Temple, be it a case of UPG or not. I promised it to the Gods I believe in and I will keep that promise. It will take a good few years, but it will happen. I would like your help getting there, in any way you can.

So in advance, I thank you for your words.


Since the recession here (Ohio, US) several churches have gone under or consolidated and left empty buildings. A distant Buddhist temple relocated from one tiny set of rooms to a good sized church in our area. I think they got a great price given the market. Smart! Here, it is the time to buy, but that changes.

I'm not wishing such a recession to hit your area, but in the next ten years, if one does, maybe hop about and look for already made structures? Just an idea.

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2012, 06:50:55 pm »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;52583
Since the recession here (Ohio, US) several churches have gone under or consolidated and left empty buildings. A distant Buddhist temple relocated from one tiny set of rooms to a good sized church in our area. I think they got a great price given the market. Smart! Here, it is the time to buy, but that changes.

I'm not wishing such a recession to hit your area, but in the next ten years, if one does, maybe hop about and look for already made structures? Just an idea.

 
TC can be refreshing at times. The optimism is so nice to see

sailor

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 1505
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2012, 07:03:16 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;52493
You'd think, but it's not quite that easy.

As someone who has in the past lead group work, and is gearing up to do it again, here's what I want out of a space if I'm renting it:

1) Advance planning: I want to  be able to tell my group at least 3 months (and 6 or 12 months is better) when our major ritual events are going to be. If we're using rented space, that means sorting out the rental well in advance.



The advanced notice is the inherent feature of the idea. You are renting the space out for

Quote from: Jenett;52493

2) By and large, I want most of our ongoing ritual events to be in the same physical space - both for practical reasons (it's a lot less easy for people to be confused about where we're meeting this time: this can suck a huge amount of attention and plannign time that really, I'd rather spend on other things), and for magical ones: repeated use of the same physical space builds up an energy signature that's easier to work into ritual planning, supportive of ongoing work, etc.


OK, so the idea only covers the rituals that you sign up for. If you don't sign up for Beltain, you'll have to find a place for it that is going to likely be different than the communit center where you have winter solstice every year for the next 5 years.

Quote from: Jenett;52493

3) It's possible to have one ritual that's in a different space (even when we were renting, in the group I trained with, our Samhain was almost always in a different space, partly to accomodate scheduling - we'd be there from around 4pm to 2am, between set-up and tear-down, and a long ritual - and partly to accomodate a larger space than we usually needed.)

But the times those are likely to be the case are also the times *other* people might particularly want such spaces (Samhain, for example.)


An inherent feature is that the space is yours for a set time. Having to be in and out is inherent in Any rented or shared space.  

Quote from: Jenett;52493

4) The complication of small group work is that you don't have a lot of people to spread expenses among.

I have a reasonably paid job, relative to my area, and I'd be able to pay a single ritual's rental (up to, say, $100 or so) out of pocket with a little advance notice. But I wouldn't be able to do, say, six months worth of reservations out of pocket nearly as easily, without either several months to get ahead on savings, or being very sure group members would chip in reliably.


Paying the fee a month at a time up front is the advanced notice. It also gives the owner and group notice if they miss a bunch of payments they lose their slot to another group that wants to buy it for 4 to 10 years.

Quote from: Jenett;52493


5) From the space owner's perspective: some Pagan groups are quite stable, year to year. Others come and go. So you're stuck with "do you require payment up front for 3 or 6 months at a time" or do you deal with maybe having a group bail on you, when you can't easily rebook a space if they cancel. (And so, you're out the rental fee entirely..)

And again, see above about point 4 - there are a lot of small groups where getting that next ritual's rental fee together is fine, but getting a lump sum for 6 months at a time is more complicated. (More specifically, it takes a particular kind of coordination that lots of people turn out not to be good at or want to do.)

Short answer: a time-share model of one ritual a year would be almost entirely uninteresting to me, unless what was on offer was something far beyond what most shared ritual spaces manage to offer.

I'm certainly not the only person doing  group stuff out there - but I've heard the same thing from a lot of people I know doing group work.

(Now, like I said: space to hold a weekend long workshop that's self-contained? That's a lot more interesting for me for rented space. Or space for weekend-long or week-long specific events that aren't tied to ritual year. But those things aren't necessarily enough to sustain a space's finances, and they don't tend to build a community of people who are connected to maintaining the physical space in energetic and in practical terms day to day and week to week.)

 
More later.

caelestisraven

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 46
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
    • http://moonkissedraven.blogspot.com/
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2012, 01:15:59 am »
Quote from: Ula;52511
Have you considered putting ads in the paper to form some sort of Pagan board? Letting those you'll be serving what your intent is. They may have resources for you and you never who else has been "called" to start working on this too.

 
This is a really interesting thread. I think the idea of a central temple is lovely. Though at the same time everyone has brought up really good points.

I think it could work in other ways. If you had an established group that held open rituals that the community- solitaries or other groups could all join together on Sabbats, then you wouldn't have to ever worry about renting out space for those. You could still have small rooms people could rent for meetings/classes. I think it would require some heavy interest within a large or several established groups for that type of idea to work though.

Ula had a lovely idea of trying to see if others are already attempting to or interested in it and working with them. I second that idea.
♥ I walk in the shadow of the moon, I dance to the pulse of the earth. ♥

My Blog..¤°.¸¸.•´¯`»http://moonkissedraven.blogspot.com/ ›●‹

Elani Temperance

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 446
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.littlewitchmagazine.com
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2012, 03:07:47 am »
Quote from: Ula;52511
Have you considered putting ads in the paper to form some sort of Pagan board? Letting those you'll be serving what your intent is. They may have resources for you and you never who else has been "called" to start working on this too.

 
First off, thank you everyone for your continued interest in this thread. Because of Beltane, I couldn't attend my computer but I'm catching up :)

I have definitely considered this and it is something I will do once I find out the best way to contact Pagans. This will need a committee, it can't just be me. And yes, other people might have gotten this calling as well :) Thank you!
Where I ramble on: Baring the Aegis
Where I try to be coherent: Little Witch magazine
My PaganSquare blog as hosted by Witches & Pagans
Hellenic Polytheistic charity circle Pandora\'s Kharis.

Elani Temperance

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 446
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.littlewitchmagazine.com
Re: "Build Us a Temple"
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2012, 03:52:22 am »
Quote from: Jenett;52477
No matter *how* good your scheduling tools are, you can't have people using the same space for private/group/trad specific events at the same time.  

It's less complicated for things like initiations, or group classes, or whatever, which can be a bit more flexible - but even there, you'll tend to find some times are in extremely high demand (weekends), and some times aren't (weekday mornings)

This is a good point and Wickerman came with the idea to host public events myself (or organized by me and executed by others) on these on-demand days. A sort of bonding exercise for the Pagan community. I'd invite respected priests and priestesses of the various pantheons/faiths to do a ritual that most of that pantheon can agree with. I pay the priests/priestesses and provide some of the basic stuff for the rituals and the visitors pay an entrance fee that I keep for the temple and to cover costs. This probably won't be profitable for a little while but as word spreads...


Quote from: Jenett;52477
Am I going to pay money on a regular basis so I can do personal work that is far better suited to a private setting (like my home)? Probably not. A business model that relies on my doing so (and on lots of people more or less like me doing so) is going to fail.

I understand this point very well as I loath hauling all my stuff around for ritual. I think the main point of a Temple should be prayer and study. For me, prayer and ritual are two different things. A few minutes to offer to the Gods and spent in quiet contemplation is, to me, the main advantage of a Temple. A sacred space designed for our Gods. This is where memberships come in.

Would the draw of a public Temple be great enough to draw everyone to it for any ritual they want to do? No, I certainly don't think so. Holidays, initiations, etc, those are things you come to a Temple for.

Also, I think you mentioned high times and low times in terms of traffic? I deleted the quote already, unfortunately. I just wanted to say that during week days, there are a lot of other places to get revenue from. Community outreach programs for example. Here it's quiet common for people with (mental) disabilities to do community service work. Companies or foundations get paid a little fee to allow them on their terrain and help out with various odd jobs. Between the gardens and a few small animals, it might be a good place for them to help out and gain some extra money.

Again, thank you for all your thoughts on this. It really helps.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 03:53:02 am by Elani Temperance »
Where I ramble on: Baring the Aegis
Where I try to be coherent: Little Witch magazine
My PaganSquare blog as hosted by Witches & Pagans
Hellenic Polytheistic charity circle Pandora\'s Kharis.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
2 Replies
1573 Views
Last post August 29, 2011, 10:12:31 pm
by diana_rajchel
8 Replies
1034 Views
Last post June 13, 2013, 10:52:19 pm
by sailor
17 Replies
1842 Views
Last post April 30, 2014, 11:39:26 pm
by Finn
12 Replies
1845 Views
Last post July 02, 2017, 05:04:37 am
by Ecco
4 Replies
694 Views
Last post August 19, 2017, 08:55:30 pm
by Eastling

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 49
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 2
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall