when a spell doesn't seem to be working.

[Darkhawk]

For your final point...
"Black magic" is a judgement of ethical value. Ultimately, whether something is black magick or not comes down to what's considered ethical by the magician, and by his or her society. Some things are universal, but every application of magick on another isn't one of them. With the OP coming from a different tradition, I hardly think either of us are close enough to the context she works in to make a value judgement.

 
Cracking out one of my favourites:
"White magic is poetry.  Black magic is anything that works."

[random417]

I didn't tell you what my system is.

You seem to suffer from the delusion that Magick need not work in accordance with reality.

That attitude is folly.

I agree with you about magick working within natural laws, the problem being that some of our natural laws are up for discussion. I'll make us a separate thread for discussion on what natural laws magick must follow.

[random417]

Cracking out one of my favourites:
"White magic is poetry.  Black magic is anything that works."

I like that, is that yours, or a quote from someone?

[Darkhawk]

I didn't tell you what my system is.

 
Aside from the bits about self-mastery and self-perfection, the assumptions about what forms of action are appropriate to take magically, the "true will" buzzphrase, and the commentary about Crowley you made in another post, all of which relate to a very narrow selection of magical systems.

[Darkhawk]

I like that, is that yours, or a quote from someone?

 
Victor Anderson.

[random417]

Aside from the bits about self-mastery and self-perfection, the assumptions about what forms of action are appropriate to take magically, the "true will" buzzphrase, and the commentary about Crowley you made in another post, all of which relate to a very narrow selection of magical systems.

Can you link for me, so I don't have to hunt? Without reading, I'd rather not assume, but True Will isn't exclusive to Crowley. Likely due to Crowley's influence, but it's rather common in Ceremonial spheres. Chaos Magick springs to mind off hand

[Darkhawk]

Can you link for me, so I don't have to hunt? Without reading, I'd rather not assume, but True Will isn't exclusive to Crowley. Likely due to Crowley's influence, but it's rather common in Ceremonial spheres. Chaos Magick springs to mind off hand

 
Ugh, I'm not sure where it was posted.  Something about sigil magic.

But yes, it all points to "ceremonial spheres".  Which is a very particular form of magic that derives from a very specific and narrow perspective, one which, historically speaking, excludes women, the poor (really, anyone outside the leisure classes), the illiterate and otherwise uneducated, and so on.

Those groups tended to practice magic in a manner less concerned with "perfecting yourself" and more with "getting shit accomplished", because when you're one of the people the Maslow pyramid is sitting on things look a lot different than when you're perched up where "self-actualisation" is the thing that magic looks great for.

(Now I kind of want to see if I can find the article I wrote a dog's age ago about various forms of actual practical magic, partially in response to the ceremonialist I found pontificating on the internet about how women couldn't do real magic because women actually care about getting shit accomplished.)

[Wimsaur]

Ugh, I'm not sure where it was posted.  Something about sigil magic.

But yes, it all points to "ceremonial spheres".  Which is a very particular form of magic that derives from a very specific and narrow perspective, one which, historically speaking, excludes women, the poor (really, anyone outside the leisure classes), the illiterate and otherwise uneducated, and so on.

Those groups tended to practice magic in a manner less concerned with "perfecting yourself" and more with "getting shit accomplished", because when you're one of the people the Maslow pyramid is sitting on things look a lot different than when you're perched up where "self-actualisation" is the thing that magic looks great for.

(Now I kind of want to see if I can find the article I wrote a dog's age ago about various forms of actual practical magic, partially in response to the ceremonialist I found pontificating on the internet about how women couldn't do real magic because women actually care about getting shit accomplished.)

Any attitude toward excluding women (and the feminine principle) in the systems you describe will always be incomplete.

This gives us a good example to referring to natural law. The vast majority of animals have two genders or else manifest both within themselves.

At the atomic level, we have positive (masculine) particles called protons and negative (feminine) particles called electrons. Without either, the atom would be incomplete.

The laws of electromagnetism express this polarity as north and south for magnetism, and positive and negative charges for current in electricity.

In fact, the way that circuits work in general reflects human attraction. Two electric lines with a charge moving in the same direction will attract each other just as two people with similar interests attract each other.

Remember that the first scientists were alchemists who sought to discover the laws of the physical world so they could better understand their own souls.

[stephyjh]

Remember that the first scientists were alchemists who sought to discover the laws of the physical world so they could better understand their own souls.

 
I'm sure that the individuals performing rudimentary brain surgery during the Neolithic period would be fascinated to know that.

[random417]

Ugh, I'm not sure where it was posted.  Something about sigil magic.

But yes, it all points to "ceremonial spheres".  Which is a very particular form of magic that derives from a very specific and narrow perspective, one which, historically speaking, excludes women, the poor (really, anyone outside the leisure classes), the illiterate and otherwise uneducated, and so on.

Those groups tended to practice magic in a manner less concerned with "perfecting yourself" and more with "getting shit accomplished", because when you're one of the people the Maslow pyramid is sitting on things look a lot different than when you're perched up where "self-actualisation" is the thing that magic looks great for.

(Now I kind of want to see if I can find the article I wrote a dog's age ago about various forms of actual practical magic, partially in response to the ceremonialist I found pontificating on the internet about how women couldn't do real magic because women actually care about getting shit accomplished.)

Yeah, see I'm a Ceremonialist myself, and I'd like to respond to all of that, if I may:

Ceremonial Magic encompasses many different paths, and generalizing all Ceremonialists based on this guy, or even one path within it, is unfair. Thelema in particular isn't a good overview of all Ceremonialists. Drawing conclusions about all Ceremonialists through Thelema is like drawing conclusions about all Pagans through Germanic recons.

Self actualization ties with religion in many cases. I don't remember which path you follow yourself, but I'll make assumptions (which of course you may correct) that there's a conception of the Divine, that you work with such, and that your patron, or equivalent URGES YOU TO BE A BETTER PERSON. Self actualization is a part of most religious paths. I believe that magick offers paths to self actualization that aren't available without it.

I don't know if you saw, but I actually pushed him in another thread about that. Thaumaturgy is an important part of any path that believes it's possible, because setting your physical world allows for personal growth if nothing else.

Also, at some point, a path must be separated from its origins. The white male elite center of Ceremonialism is a product of its times. Starting the same attitudes to modern Ceremonialists is like saying the Asatruar (sp?) Community, because of its origins, is gathering warriors, and may decide to raid my community. Offensive, isn't it? I could come up with more examples, but they'd be even more likely to offend. I fail to see the difference between drawing that parallel and yours.

[Darkhawk]

Also, at some point, a path must be separated from its origins. The white male elite center of Ceremonialism is a product of its times.

 
However, when assumptions that depend on that origin - such as "the purpose of magic is personal development" - are being thrown around, pointing out that that assumption requires an exclusionary approach is entirely relevant.

It is not a universal truth of magical practice, and never has been, not at any point in history.  There have always been people whose magic has been bent to practical ends, for whom magic is a tool of practical usage - for bindings, for cleansings, for fertility, for protection, for other basic needs.  Not, as Wimsaur claims, to "perfect yourself".

A magical theory that claims that "perfecting yourself" is the fundamental purpose of magic is historically incorrect and can only be rooted in the exclusionary.  Which is why the exclusionary nature of that assertion is being pointed out, over and over again.  Because it is directly linked to the false claims about the nature and purpose of magical work.

(Really, I rather suspect if you commented to a group of modern heathens that they are more aggressive than many other groups because of their ethos, they would agree with you; at least I've seen that conversation happen more than once.)

[HeartShadow]

 
Wait.  wait wait wait.

Did you REALLY just invoke gender essentialism into .. atoms?

wtf is a neutron then?  or a quark?  ooh ooh, positrons!

Seriously, dude, that's just bizarre.  Not all dualities line up into one axis.

.....dude.

[Wimsaur]

However, when assumptions that depend on that origin - such as "the purpose of magic is personal development" - are being thrown around, pointing out that that assumption requires an exclusionary approach is entirely relevant.

It is not a universal truth of magical practice, and never has been, not at any point in history.  There have always been people whose magic has been bent to practical ends, for whom magic is a tool of practical usage - for bindings, for cleansings, for fertility, for protection, for other basic needs.  Not, as Wimsaur claims, to "perfect yourself".

A magical theory that claims that "perfecting yourself" is the fundamental purpose of magic is historically incorrect and can only be rooted in the exclusionary.  Which is why the exclusionary nature of that assertion is being pointed out, over and over again.  Because it is directly linked to the false claims about the nature and purpose of magical work.

(Really, I rather suspect if you commented to a group of modern heathens that they are more aggressive than many other groups because of their ethos, they would agree with you; at least I've seen that conversation happen more than once.)

It seems to me that you are more interested in the history of the view then the view itself; and having to face your own inadequacies and weaknesses.

Of course you can use magick for base purposes to protect yourself from having to know yourself.

I'll say this one more time before bowing out: cursing other people so as not to face your own fears is the action of a coward.

This is your choice of course.

Knock yourself out.

[Wimsaur]

Wait.  wait wait wait.

Did you REALLY just invoke gender essentialism into .. atoms?

wtf is a neutron then?  or a quark?  ooh ooh, positrons!

Seriously, dude, that's just bizarre.  Not all dualities line up into one axis.

.....dude.

What do I know, I'm just a scientist with a physics degree.

I grow vary of throwing pearls before swine.

I hope you're not a real guru.

[Breeze]

There have always been people whose magic has been bent to practical ends, for whom magic is a tool of practical usage - for bindings, for cleansings, for fertility, for protection, for other basic needs.  Not, as Wimsaur claims, to "perfect yourself".

THIS is the magic that I practice.  The magic I go for is "the art of getting shit done when wholly physical/'mundane' means aren't viable or feasible."  I haven't experienced enough delusions of grandeur to say "perfecting" myself, but my religion is for bettering myself, not my magic.