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Author Topic: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.  (Read 6615 times)

stephyjh

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2014, 06:55:28 pm »
Quote from: Wimsaur;158638
Yes, they should have. Life can be unpleasant and must be endured and overcome.

The goal of Magick is to perfect yourself. This includes facing and overcoming obstacles on a human level.

If people are not strong enough to stand up for themselves without witchcraft, they are DEFINITELY not strong enough to face the repercussions of using magick for offensive purposes.

And for the record, using magick on other people against their will IS Black Magick.


 
Assuming you subscribe to a magick-with-a-k system at all, the majority of which were developed for upper-class, able-bodied white cis men. Sometimes it's not a question of strength but of resources, and assuming people are weak for going the only route they can is pretty judgmental, wouldn't you say?

For background, much of my magical practice is based on folk traditions that developed in an environment where magic was used as a recourse for those who, in many cases, had no other. Not because they were weak, but because this world doesn't give the same opportunities to everyone. That's just not how it works.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

Wimsaur

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2014, 07:02:42 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;158640
I was not aware that was the only acceptable goal. So what do you think of the use of magic in hoodoo and other African diaspora traditions?

Certainly their are other goals accepting many viewpoints. Yet many seek to cover up our own deficiencies that we are afraid to face. Should that fear be faced and destroyed, we become more capable beings; less so restricted by poison.

I look at Magick as not so much a power, but a way of seeing life and our spiritual path.

I am not that familiar with the spiritual mechanics of the magick or religions in hoodoo and other African diaspora traditions.

That said, magick is a tool the same way a knife is. In the hands of certain people, that knife is a dangerous weapon used for wounding and murder. However, to the vast majority of people, a knife is a versatile tool used for many diverse purposes ranging from carving and cutting, to artistic widdling and sculpting.

You can use Magick to effect a motion coercing change in another beings path, or you can direct it inward to make your own soul blossom.

The use of magic in hoodoo and other African diaspora traditions is worked by individuals having their own soul and own purposes. Thus some use magick as a weapon and some like a tool to further their own worthy spiritual development.

Breeze

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2014, 10:22:08 pm »
Quote from: Wimsaur;158638
And for the record, using magick on other people against their will IS Black Magick.


And?  You say that like it's a bad thing.

Wimsaur

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2014, 10:48:14 pm »
Quote from: Breeze;158669
And?  You say that like it's a bad thing.

It's all in the motives. Using black magick to avoid self discovery and facing our fears--the only true enemy that keeps us from our birthright of self knowledge--is folly.

Black Magick strategically employed to fulfill our true wills is quite something else.

Redfaery

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2014, 07:20:50 am »
Quote from: Wimsaur;158673
It's all in the motives. Using black magick to avoid self discovery and facing our fears--the only true enemy that keeps us from our birthright of self knowledge--is folly.

Black Magick strategically employed to fulfill our true wills is quite something else.

 
You're making an awful lot of assumptions about the OP, and I really don't think that's appropriate.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

HeartShadow

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2014, 08:08:19 am »
Quote from: Wimsaur;158673
It's all in the motives. Using black magick to avoid self discovery and facing our fears--the only true enemy that keeps us from our birthright of self knowledge--is folly.

Black Magick strategically employed to fulfill our true wills is quite something else.

 
You say you don't know anything about how other traditions work - and then go and say things about how they work.

You are talking about /one school/ of magic.  Other schools of magic are different to the point of being a different tool in the toolbox.  You're speaking of knives, and they're talking about screwdrivers.  It's just not the same thing, it doesn't have the same goal, and using one to describe the other promotes only confusion.

random417

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2014, 09:46:00 am »
Quote from: Wimsaur;158614
It didn't work because she is not a blind force to respond to your command, but a living human being with her own free will.

This COULD raise ethical considerations (it doesn't for me, but I can understand where it does), but has nothing to do with why it "didn't work". Also, reread the post. My understanding is that it was working, then quit working.
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

Wimsaur

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2014, 10:14:35 am »
Quote from: HeartShadow;158694
You say you don't know anything about how other traditions work - and then go and say things about how they work.

You are talking about /one school/ of magic.  Other schools of magic are different to the point of being a different tool in the toolbox.  You're speaking of knives, and they're talking about screwdrivers.  It's just not the same thing, it doesn't have the same goal, and using one to describe the other promotes only confusion.

Clearly you have missed the point of what I was saying.
Magick works because it is in accordance with the laws of nature. If one system were not to work as well as another it is because it fails to work in accordance to natural law.

You are too fixated on which tool I used as an example. Knife, screwdriver, computer, that was not the point. The point is that a tool may be employed constructively or destructively.

I don't need to know the spiritual theory of voodoo to understand how it's Magick works. The laws of nature don't care whether you practice voodoo, witchcraft, sigil magick, Qabalah, or anything else.

If you choose to cast spells on people because you are too weak willed to face your own fears, then you are most likely too weak willed to overcome another person's will.

random417

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2014, 10:15:42 am »
Quote from: Wimsaur;158638
Yes, they should have. Life can be unpleasant and must be endured and overcome.

The goal of Magick is to perfect yourself. This includes facing and overcoming obstacles on a human level.

If people are not strong enough to stand up for themselves without witchcraft, they are DEFINITELY not strong enough to face the repercussions of using magick for offensive purposes.

And for the record, using magick on other people against their will IS Black Magick.

As a fellow theurgist (*sigh* high magician) I have to disagree, not with your premise, but with your conclusion.

Yes, overcoming obstacles and perfecting oneself IS the aim of the sage. However, if magick is an extension of the Will, then the application of that Will, through magickal means, becomes a tool for sharpening the Will.

It appears to me, although I could be wrong, that you looked at the OP's story and decided that the reason she (I think, I didn't check pronouns, I'm on my phone) chose a direct application of Will through magick is because she was weak. I saw it more as dealing with an issue in a way that avoids creating more problems than it solves. Let me ask you this: How is the application of magick over a more physical world solution any less facing the issue?

Also, I don't see what the OP described as "magick for offensive purposes". I also think the concept there is flawed. Yeah sure, maybe there's fallout from her spell, but I hardly think the fallout is worse than it would be dealing with it on a more physical level. Outside of invocation of forces that have their own consequences, magick doesn't carry karmic repercussions outside of the act itself.

For your final point...
"Black magic" is a judgement of ethical value. Ultimately, whether something is black magick or not comes down to what's considered ethical by the magician, and by his or her society. Some things are universal, but every application of magick on another isn't one of them. With the OP coming from a different tradition, I hardly think either of us are close enough to the context she works in to make a value judgement.
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

Wimsaur

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2014, 10:17:22 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;158689
You're making an awful lot of assumptions about the OP, and I really don't think that's appropriate.

Your talk about what appropriate is irrelevant. I have made no moral attacks.

Wimsaur

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2014, 10:24:23 am »
Quote from: random417;158697
This COULD raise ethical considerations (it doesn't for me, but I can understand where it does), but has nothing to do with why it "didn't work". Also, reread the post. My understanding is that it was working, then quit working.

Ethics are irrelevant.
If you don't have the will to master yourself, you are less likely to master someone else's will.

Think of radio. If I want to broadcast over NBC so that I interrupt their current broadcast, I would need a transmitter that is more powerful than theirs. This is a fact of physics.

Magick is no different. You need to be more powerful than another person to control them.

If you want to understand natural law, just look toward nature. Science provides the clues which can be proven a thousand times and corresponds to magick.

I challenge you to prove me wrong on this. No system of magick will work if it tries to go against natural law.

random417

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2014, 10:32:02 am »
Quote from: Wimsaur;158700
Your talk about what appropriate is irrelevant. I have made no moral attacks.

But it is, and bluntly, your previous comments about magick on another open the door for it...

If we accept Crowleys definition of magick being "change in conformity with Will" then actions done with intent are always magical.

You stated that working magick on another person against their will is black magick, which implies a value judgement.

Making assumptions, then speaking of them in a public venue presents your assumptions AS part of what the OP says puts your assumptions in the mouth of the OP.

This action then, by your own indications, become an act of exerting your will on all of us. Outside of whether it's appropriate on a more mundane level (I don't believe it is, but we can leave that alone), the ethical boundaries you have defined makes it unethical from where you sit.
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

Wimsaur

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2014, 10:47:16 am »
Quote from: random417;158702
But it is, and bluntly, your previous comments about magick on another open the door for it...

If we accept Crowleys definition of magick being "change in conformity with Will" then actions done with intent are always magical.

You stated that working magick on another person against their will is black magick, which implies a value judgement.

Making assumptions, then speaking of them in a public venue presents your assumptions AS part of what the OP says puts your assumptions in the mouth of the OP.

This action then, by your own indications, become an act of exerting your will on all of us. Outside of whether it's appropriate on a more mundane level (I don't believe it is, but we can leave that alone), the ethical boundaries you have defined makes it unethical from where you sit.

Point taken.

HeartShadow

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2014, 11:00:52 am »
Quote from: Wimsaur;158698
Clearly you have missed the point of what I was saying.
Magick works because it is in accordance with the laws of nature. If one system were not to work as well as another it is because it fails to work in accordance to natural law.

 
I'm saying your premise only holds in YOUR system of magic, not EVERY system of magic.

And given that it's pretty damn hard to judge results, there's absolutely no proof that your system is any more accurate than another.

Heck, there's no proof even that there's any "natural law" it works by.  Or that it works at all.  If there was empirical proof, we'd call it science.

Start with a different premise, and everything you said goes out the window.

Wimsaur

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Re: when a spell doesn't seem to be working.
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2014, 11:19:59 am »
Quote from: HeartShadow;158705
I'm saying your premise only holds in YOUR system of magic, not EVERY system of magic.

And given that it's pretty damn hard to judge results, there's absolutely no proof that your system is any more accurate than another.

Heck, there's no proof even that there's any "natural law" it works by.  Or that it works at all.  If there was empirical proof, we'd call it science.

Start with a different premise, and everything you said goes out the window.

I didn't tell you what my system is.

You seem to suffer from the delusion that Magick need not work in accordance with reality.

That attitude is folly.

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