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Author Topic: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway  (Read 13576 times)

catja6

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2011, 02:36:59 am »
Quote from: DerickVonD;35077
Riiiight and what if I tell people what is going on and the real issues and they arrested me for people a "terrorist" for no agreeing with the president. The country is becoming like Nazi Germany and everyone is too stupid to realize it.

 
So your solution to a bad political system is to try and force another sentient being -- a human of a different element -- to come at your beck and call and do your bidding?  If you actually care about injustice, you might want to reconsider the entire ethics of "summoning."  The belief that entire groups of beings exist for your benefit, and you're entitled to order them around, is exactly the kind of thinking that creates the political systems you're so upset about.

Valentine

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2011, 03:41:44 am »
Quote from: catja6;35223
So your solution to a bad political system is to try and force another sentient being -- a human of a different element -- to come at your beck and call and do your bidding?  If you actually care about injustice, you might want to reconsider the entire ethics of "summoning."  The belief that entire groups of beings exist for your benefit, and you're entitled to order them around, is exactly the kind of thinking that creates the political systems you're so upset about.


Now I am imagining a sort of Jinn Suffrage Movement.  I mean, invocation is always sticky business for safety reasons and ethical reasons, and there are ways to do it non-coercively (by extending an invitation, say, with protections for you but not bindings on them), but yeah, from a social-justice perspective, there's a potential debate to be had.  It's one thing to use invocation like a long-distance phone call or a court summons, and another to use it like a lasso and holding cell and shock collar.  (That and people always seem to want to haul dangerous things into their homes and poke at them.  And sure, if your only goal is power, I can see why you'd go for that, but honestly, death wish much?)  (I know I'm overfond of parentheticals, but I did a consultation once on a particularly nasty case of a woman who had a ghulah sicced on her.  That sort of thing never ends well for anyone.)
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
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DerickVonD

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2011, 04:57:42 am »
Quote from: catja6;35223
So your solution to a bad political system is to try and force another sentient being -- a human of a different element -- to come at your beck and call and do your bidding?  If you actually care about injustice, you might want to reconsider the entire ethics of "summoning."  The belief that entire groups of beings exist for your benefit, and you're entitled to order them around, is exactly the kind of thinking that creates the political systems you're so upset about.

 
Oh yeah summoning beings to get rid of the tyrants of the world, before they come and take us off to prison camps thats very selfish isn't it.

DerickVonD

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2011, 05:00:20 am »
Quote from: Valentine;35227
Now I am imagining a sort of Jinn Suffrage Movement.  I mean, invocation is always sticky business for safety reasons and ethical reasons, and there are ways to do it non-coercively (by extending an invitation, say, with protections for you but not bindings on them), but yeah, from a social-justice perspective, there's a potential debate to be had.  It's one thing to use invocation like a long-distance phone call or a court summons, and another to use it like a lasso and holding cell and shock collar.  (That and people always seem to want to haul dangerous things into their homes and poke at them.  And sure, if your only goal is power, I can see why you'd go for that, but honestly, death wish much?)  (I know I'm overfond of parentheticals, but I did a consultation once on a particularly nasty case of a woman who had a ghulah sicced on her.  That sort of thing never ends well for anyone.)
Well could you or at least other members do magic, it doesn't have to be black, but magic that would atleast prevent the signing of the internet censorship bill into law and that will help the country. I am deathly afraid if they are not stopped they will imprison most of the US, or worse kill them. Why do you think I'm willing to summon a Djinn, I can't physically fight the government, so what else is there for me to do. As the law is now if I protest, I could be arrested as a terrorist and people go about their daily lives ignorant to the fact that they are slaves to an unjust system. I need help, all the US needs help right now and "thinking about things from another point of view" won't help. Do you think sympathizing with Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin would have helped anyone that was killed during their reigns? NO, it would not. THese men are tyrants that run the world and they should be seen as such.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 05:05:32 am by DerickVonD »

HeartShadow

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2011, 07:06:33 am »
Quote from: DerickVonD;35230
Well could you or at least other members do magic, it doesn't have to be black, but magic that would atleast prevent the signing of the internet censorship bill into law and that will help the country. I am deathly afraid if they are not stopped they will imprison most of the US, or worse kill them. Why do you think I'm willing to summon a Djinn, I can't physically fight the government, so what else is there for me to do. As the law is now if I protest, I could be arrested as a terrorist and people go about their daily lives ignorant to the fact that they are slaves to an unjust system. I need help, all the US needs help right now and "thinking about things from another point of view" won't help. Do you think sympathizing with Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin would have helped anyone that was killed during their reigns? NO, it would not. THese men are tyrants that run the world and they should be seen as such.

 
That's assuming that A) no one else HAS done anything and B) that magic is the answer here.

There's a LOT of social activism going on right now.  A LOT of protest, of anger, of cries against the system.  You're hardly a lone voice in the wilderness, and portraying yourself as such really strains the bounds of reality.

We KNOW there's unjustness and problems.  You're talking to people who've been on the front lines of activism.  Screaming "oh now it's me" makes you really look like the rest of the people that have been sidelined are irrelevant.

mlr52

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2011, 07:13:33 am »
Quote from: DerickVonD;35230
Why do you think I'm willing to summon a Djinn, I can't physically fight the government, so what else is there for me to do.

 So you call a Djinn, then someone else calls a Djinn to counter the efforts of the one you called.  How many will it take?

Educating, and getting people involved in what is supposed to be a government of the people is one solution.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 07:16:36 am by mlr52 »
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Tana

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2011, 07:32:31 am »
Quote from: DerickVonD;35230
Well could you or at least other members do magic, it doesn't have to be black, but magic that would atleast prevent the signing of the internet censorship bill into law and that will help the country.

 
I think you are not getting the point.

You base your plan and the above request on your evaluation of the current situation and on your decision what is an acceptable way to react to the situation and what is 'too risky' for your own safety.

See, here is the fact.

The world is not a just place, governments are doing what they think is right, most people don't care, neither give a rat's ass about it - as long as they can live on in their own illusion of freedom and safety. (Which for most folks seems to be, the freedom to consume, to go on vacation once a year and to rant about the latest tax raise over a beer.)

I can totally see that you are worried.
But I think - and it has been put in way better words already - that you should get up and see what there is to do.

Do you really think magic works the way you seem to believe?
Do you really think you can change the fate of a whole nation by one little magical act? Have you ever thought about spell mechanisms? About influence, possibilities and responsibility?

Because I highly doubt you will be able to foresee all the consequences such actions, that you call for, will have. Would you be willing to take all those consequences? The storm you might reap?

But you are afraid of doing a little community work?

I think either you stand up for what you want to change, or you should stay put.
People put themselves in risk trying to change things all over the world - and yes - some of them have to sacrifice it all. To think about that is scary.

There is this saying: Together we are strong.
Which comes right back to what Val said so well. Building communities is the key.
If you really think, mumbling a summoning over a candle will change the world, you can do whatever you like, but it won't change anything, but giving you the feeling you did something - which basically wouldn't be true.
\'You had to repay, good or bad. There was more than one type of obligation.
That’s what people never really understood.….Things had to balance.
You couldn’t set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long.
All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.\'
Terry Pratchett \'Lords and Ladies\'

Confuzzled and proud. :p

Valentine

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2011, 03:23:40 pm »
Quote from: DerickVonD;35230
Well could you or at least other members do magic, it doesn't have to be black, but magic that would atleast prevent the signing of the internet censorship bill into law and that will help the country. I am deathly afraid if they are not stopped they will imprison most of the US, or worse kill them. Why do you think I'm willing to summon a Djinn, I can't physically fight the government, so what else is there for me to do. As the law is now if I protest, I could be arrested as a terrorist and people go about their daily lives ignorant to the fact that they are slaves to an unjust system. I need help, all the US needs help right now and "thinking about things from another point of view" won't help. Do you think sympathizing with Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin would have helped anyone that was killed during their reigns? NO, it would not. THese men are tyrants that run the world and they should be seen as such.

 
I have never had rights, human child, and I have already been to jail and back as an activist.  Where were you then, in an unjust system?  Where were you panicking when it was just Arabs and Muslims getting locked up without recourse?  When it was just Mexicans getting shot at by drone aircraft, or having their families torn apart by fiat and their children taken away?  When it was just queers getting arrested and assaulted by police for no good reason?  When it was just Black people having their votes thrown out or beaten out of them?  When it was the rest of us being surveilled and spied on as terrorists?  When it was just Africa, or India, or Iowa, or Cincinnati, or Detroit, being starved out by corporate lobbies?  When it was New Orleans being handed over to martial law?  

What do you think magic is?  What do you think it's for?  Do you think it's any safer or easier than doing work in the world, the hard slow way, that it's anything the rest of us haven't already tried?  These are complex grown-up problems and they require complex grown-up solutions, and that means far older magic.  It means the magic of getting off your ass and getting your hands dirty and actually doing the work.  It means the magic you can't do by yourself but only by connecting with other people.  So you've noticed that the world is frightening and unfair and you feel alone in it.  I get that.  Instead of insisting that everyone reinvent the wheel and start where you are, consider joining the people who have been fighting this fight for the entirety of memory.  Magic is not a shortcut and it is not a panacea.  It's us and how we move in the world, and grown-up witches don't expect the planet to shift on its axis with the wave of a wand.  They get elbow-deep in the reality of things and sweat a little.  

If you're too scared to be an activist, you're not going to get any better results with any sorcery you can find--because magic requires courage and will and sacrifice and compassion and common sense, it bears risks and costs, and it requires a willingness to exist in the world and communicate and see how things fit together.  Magic is like any action.  It has consequences.  Caring has consequences.  Justice has consequences.  If you're trying magic to avoid risk and hard work, you're never going to get anywhere.  And if you think there's a real difference between doing magic and helping your neighbor, you have a lot of homework to do.  

That's what people are telling you.  Magic is not a cheat code to the universe.  You want to wave your hands and light a candle and make everything better in a twinkling, read a fantasy novel.  You want results, do the much more effective magic of getting involved in your community.  "What else is there for you to do"?  You've been given suggestions.  Suggestions that work.  If you don't want to hear those answers, that's on you.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
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catja6

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2011, 03:28:11 pm »
Quote from: DerickVonD;35229
Oh yeah summoning beings to get rid of the tyrants of the world, before they come and take us off to prison camps thats very selfish isn't it.


I can pretty much guarantee that's never going to happen to you.  The Powers That Be are scared of people like Valentine, who are doing real, important brick-by-brick community organization, because that's where change happens.  They are NOT scared of the type of melodramatic posturing you're exhibiting here.  The fact that you're actually invoking Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, and prison camps indicates that you care more about histrionics than in actually dealing with the real issues in any kind of concrete way.  

And again:  your answer here indicates that you don't give a toss about actual social justice or ethics -- "for the greater good" has been used countless times as a justification for exploiting and enslaving people, and the fact that you think that's okay makes you just as bad as the people you're angry at.

catja6

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2011, 03:39:16 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;35227
Now I am imagining a sort of Jinn Suffrage Movement.  I mean, invocation is always sticky business for safety reasons and ethical reasons, and there are ways to do it non-coercively (by extending an invitation, say, with protections for you but not bindings on them), but yeah, from a social-justice perspective, there's a potential debate to be had.  It's one thing to use invocation like a long-distance phone call or a court summons, and another to use it like a lasso and holding cell and shock collar.  (That and people always seem to want to haul dangerous things into their homes and poke at them.  And sure, if your only goal is power, I can see why you'd go for that, but honestly, death wish much?)  (I know I'm overfond of parentheticals, but I did a consultation once on a particularly nasty case of a woman who had a ghulah sicced on her.  That sort of thing never ends well for anyone.)


One of the things that's always fascinated me about various magical systems is how profoundly embedded within existing cultural attitudes and contexts they are.  The Western ceremonial grimoire-based traditions are so, so much the products of the privileged classes -- middle/upper-class men with the funds, education, and leisure time necessary to even access the materials in the first place.  It's completely unsurprising that these magical systems are predicated on the idea that it's okay to summon and bind sentient beings -- when you've been raised to believe that you are intrinsically entitled to order around to the vast majority of the human race, pushing spirits/djinns/demons around is no big conceptual leap.  (There is some comfort in the fact that, as you said, a lot of these beings are more than capable of delivering some instant karma.)

catja6

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2011, 03:41:04 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;35288
I have never had rights, human child, and I have already been to jail and back as an activist.  Where were you then, in an unjust system?

 
You are seriously fucking awesome.

Tana

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2011, 03:49:00 pm »
Quote from: catja6;35293
You are seriously fucking awesome.


Seconded. :lub:
\'You had to repay, good or bad. There was more than one type of obligation.
That’s what people never really understood.….Things had to balance.
You couldn’t set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long.
All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.\'
Terry Pratchett \'Lords and Ladies\'

Confuzzled and proud. :p

Aisling

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2011, 05:01:59 pm »
Quote from: Tana;35295
Seconded. :lub:

 
And thirded.
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DragonDaughter

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2011, 06:04:04 pm »
Quote from: catja6;35293
You are seriously fucking awesome.

 
Indeed! Well written Valentine, and good food for thought for everyone.

Thank you!
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Valentine

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Re: I may invoke a djinn. We will all die or be imprisioned soon anyway
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2011, 06:06:06 pm »
Quote from: catja6;35293
You are seriously fucking awesome.

 
I think it's just the daughter-of-Lilith thing.  (I may have gone a little over the top.)  Monsters and margins, all the time.

I could've been more succinct and just quoted Terry Pratchett:  "There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

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