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Author Topic: Culturally speaking are all forms of magick/witchcraft philosophies different?  (Read 6748 times)

PrincessKLS

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Like for example is the Wiccan rule, "If ye harm none..." universal in any way?
Can all magick backfire, despite your belief system of what is correct and what isn't?
PrincessKLS

Tom

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;168985
Like for example is the Wiccan rule, "If ye harm none..." universal in any way?
Can all magick backfire, despite your belief system of what is correct and what isn't?

 
Well, in my mind, any action can backfire in someway, in the sense that you get a result that you were definitely not wanting. And if you see magic as an action, then of course, it could backfire. But that's my personal take on it.

Jabberwocky

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;168985
Like for example is the Wiccan rule, "If ye harm none..." universal in any way?


No.  It's a philosophical statement of intent primarily.

Quote
Can all magick backfire, despite your belief system of what is correct and what isn't?


Yes, but that's as much practical as it is philosophical.  As Tom says, any action can backfire or have unintended consequences.
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PrincessKLS

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Quote from: Jabberwocky;168990
No.  It's a philosophical statement of intent primarily.



Yes, but that's as much practical as it is philosophical.  As Tom says, any action can backfire or have unintended consequences.

 


I didn't think it was possible but everything I thought about doing lately has given me a lot of Christian and Wiccan guilt.  I didn't know there was such a thing as Wiccan guilt. I'm not even completely Wiccan. I hate living in a dogmatic society. If I do magick, bad shit happens and if I don't do magick, everything stays the same.
PrincessKLS

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;168998
I didn't think it was possible but everything I thought about doing lately has given me a lot of Christian and Wiccan guilt.  I didn't know there was such a thing as Wiccan guilt. I'm not even completely Wiccan. I hate living in a dogmatic society. If I do magick, bad shit happens and if I don't do magick, everything stays the same.

 
What do you mean when you say "Wiccan guilt"? How do you feel this applies to you if you aren't "even completely Wiccan"?
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

-Canticle of Trials 1:10

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HeartShadow

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;168998
I didn't think it was possible but everything I thought about doing lately has given me a lot of Christian and Wiccan guilt.  I didn't know there was such a thing as Wiccan guilt. I'm not even completely Wiccan. I hate living in a dogmatic society. If I do magick, bad shit happens and if I don't do magick, everything stays the same.

 
CONSEQUENCES happen no matter what.  You drop a brick right above your foot, you get hit in the foot with a brick.  That's gravity.  Whatever rules magic functions under, there ARE rules and consequences.  

Bad ethical choices have consequences, be the choice magical or not.  If I try to hurt someone with magic, there are consequences - not some kind of arbitrary judge giving me a time-out, but consequences.  Just like if I walk up and hit someone there are consequences.  Not from on-high, but from the world around me.

Of course, even good actions have consequences.  Sometimes not the ones you want.  It's the way life works.  But it's not magic working under some kind of weird special rules.  It's that reality always wins.

PrincessKLS

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Quote from: Sage;168999
What do you mean when you say "Wiccan guilt"? How do you feel this applies to you if you aren't "even completely Wiccan"?

Like wondering if I shouldn't do love spells. Also I found out the guy I loved, got married over the holidays. It's put me in a really bad depression and I know I can't compare to how beautiful and smart his new wife is. But I still wish to be with him. It's so hard, I've been so depressed these past 7 or 8 days. I haven't done the love spell but I wish I had a chance with him.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 10:33:07 pm by PrincessKLS »
PrincessKLS

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;169014
Like wondering if I shouldn't do love spells. Also I found out the guy I loved, got married over the holidays. It's put me in a really bad depression and I know I can't compare to how beautiful and smart his new wife is. But I still wish to be with him. It's so hard, I've been so depressed these past 7 or 8 days. I haven't done the love spell but I wish I had a chance with him.

 
Different ethical systems (regardless of the religion they're attached to) will tell you different things about whether or not a love spell is a good thing to do. Honestly, I have never seen conversation about a love spell that didn't completely violate every aspect of consent ever for the person being coveted - in this case your friend who is married. Consent is absolutely paramount in my ethics, so I would see any attempt at a coercive love spell as A Bad Thing.

I'm sorry you've been depressed. Unrequited love is awful - I've been there, done that many times over. And last year after I'd broken up with my ex-fiancee, I probably would have done anything to get her back for the first two weeks or so. It's okay to be upset and give yourself time to grieve over what you've lost - even if that's just a desire that never came to fruition. But it's also really important to move on when someone else doesn't consent to being in your life the way you want them to.
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

-Canticle of Trials 1:10

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Ponder

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;169014
Like wondering if I shouldn't do love spells. Also I found out the guy I loved, got married over the holidays. It's put me in a really bad depression and I know I can't compare to how beautiful and smart his new wife is. But I still wish to be with him. It's so hard, I've been so depressed these past 7 or 8 days. I haven't done the love spell but I wish I had a chance with him.


Maybe the problem here isn't with love spells but with love spells targeted specifically at a person who does not return your affections. How about a general spell of 'people who'd be a good romantic match are now more likely to notice me'?

Faemon

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;168998
I hate living in a dogmatic society. If I do magick, bad shit happens and if I don't do magick, everything stays the same.


Speaking from an entirely other paradigm, here: If I do magic, nothing happens because magic isn't proven to have any empirical effects. If I don't do magic, then I stop or stymie my own thought processes because the magic objects, the gestures, and words all re-affirm a single concept that is part of my worldview and needs to be moved with magic ritual because it only exists when it's in action. Even a seemingly-static concept such as "my soulmate" is refreshed and nourished with something. Love doesn't just sit in your heart like a stone, it has to be made again every day...like bread.

This is what I've come to after following the principles of First Sight (magic-users keep talking about "second sight" but like second nature, societal conditioning, by dogmatic societies...everybody has second sight) and Second Thoughts (thinking about how I think.) Whatever arbiter of magical and cosmic justice and comfort has completely left my world...which is fine, because I think it was kind of a jerk.

In this situation, there's a lot between Oneself and The Object Of Desire. Even entering the sympathetic magic paradigm, a love spell on this specific person isn't going to work because you don't know his Name. I don't mean his name, but his Name. His presence that you perceive awakens the Animus in your own consciousness, that's all. There is no punishment for dissociating enough to examine the nature of this Animus, even though that's an act of magic.

So if you feel the need to go through the motions of severing the marriage that you see and bind the thread of his fate to yours instead, then I would fully encourage you to do it. It's bound to be far less harmful than what De Clerambault's sufferers are gearing up for, if they've got it in their minds that this guy's cheating on them, and by my experience spellcasting would reveal what you're truly missing that you're not saying.

This is speaking from my own understanding of Jungian/MacCoun-ian Alchemy, which doesn't necessarily consider anything really bad in and of itself. For example, MacCoun interpreted the Alchemical process of dissolution as the transformation of desire into devotion. Desire in and of itself isn't evil, it's a sign of need. It's just that with devotion, you give of your abundance rather than of your need. It's different, it's maybe "more enlightened" but everybody is at the stage of the transformation between the two that they are. As long as no crimes are committed and no harm is done then no harm is done (although hashing out the root of one's personal tendencies towards sexual objectification of people...I do it, too!...is generally a good idea. Not always, if overthinking it gets in the way of enjoying life and organically establishing relationships, but generally.)
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veggiewolf

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;169014
Like wondering if I shouldn't do love spells. Also I found out the guy I loved, got married over the holidays. It's put me in a really bad depression and I know I can't compare to how beautiful and smart his new wife is. But I still wish to be with him. It's so hard, I've been so depressed these past 7 or 8 days. I haven't done the love spell but I wish I had a chance with him.

 
You should do whatever you think you should do, recognizing that there are consequences to every action.  Not all consequences are negative, just like not all consequences are positive, but they are there and, IMO, it's better to be aware of that fact before any type of action.

So, let's say you want to do a love spell aimed at a specific person.  Here are just three potential consequences of doing that thing:
  • Forcing your will on the person in question without consent, thereby negating their free will
  • Potentially impacting connections that the person has with others, thereby negating their free will
  • Nothing happens, so you feel unfulfilled and depressed


We all have personal ethics; for some, it is set in stone, and for others, it is fluid.  The three consequences I listed, especially the first two, would keep me from casting a targeted love spell.  However, those same consequences wouldn't keep me from performing other types of targeted spells - since my personal ethics are fluid, I believe there are situations where it is worth violating someone's consent.  For me, though, loving someone isn't one of those situations.

Ultimately, people can give you their own reasons for doing or not doing something, but you have to live with yourself.  If you've not already done so, codifying your own ethics might be of benefit.

Veggie, who can't believe there were no magical ethics classes at Hogwarts.
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Jabberwocky

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Quote from: PrincessKLS;169014
Like wondering if I shouldn't do love spells. Also I found out the guy I loved, got married over the holidays. It's put me in a really bad depression and I know I can't compare to how beautiful and smart his new wife is. But I still wish to be with him. It's so hard, I've been so depressed these past 7 or 8 days. I haven't done the love spell but I wish I had a chance with him.

 
That's a horrible situation to be in.  I'm sure a lot of us have had similar experiences and sympathies.

But I advise you against casting a targeted love spell on him in the strongest possible way.

That isn't an ethical thing from me.

I'm way milder on the issue of ethics and love spells then many people.  Both because of how I view magic and because I'm really quite solipsistic.  I tend towards being a grey hat at the best of times.

I'm advising you not to do it because I'm firmly of the view that it will go horribly wrong one way or another.  Everything you've said about the situation suggests to me that it's a really bad idea, no matter how tempting it may seem.  You'd be doing the magical equivalent of juggling with nitroglycerin.

It's worth noting that my normal advice with magic is "do it and see what happens".  When I'm not suggesting that, it should ring warning bells.

That's not to say that there are necessarily no spells you could look at doing.  See if any of the following appeal.

Cast a spell on yourself to help you get over him.  This is in many ways the simplest solution, at least to the immediate situation.  However, it will only work if you're ready for it to. You'd have to really want to get over him deep down.

Cast a general "find me love" spell.  Not about him, just a spell to help you find what you're looking for.  This has a lot to recommend it.  It's not specific to a certain person, it's just hopefully helping put you in the situation where you can find romantic happiness with someone suitable and available.

Cast a spell to help your build your self confidence.  Or a series of spells; this kind of selfwork is often best approached as an ongoing project rather then a one-off.  This is probably my most recommended solution if it appeals.  Feeling better in yourself will help you romantically.  And, more importantly, it's a good outcome for its own sake.
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PrincessKLS

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Quote from: Jabberwocky;169056
That's a horrible situation to be in.  I'm sure a lot of us have had similar experiences and sympathies.

But I advise you against casting a targeted love spell on him in the strongest possible way.

That isn't an ethical thing from me.

I'm way milder on the issue of ethics and love spells then many people.  Both because of how I view magic and because I'm really quite solipsistic.  I tend towards being a grey hat at the best of times.

I'm advising you not to do it because I'm firmly of the view that it will go horribly wrong one way or another.  Everything you've said about the situation suggests to me that it's a really bad idea, no matter how tempting it may seem.  You'd be doing the magical equivalent of juggling with nitroglycerin.

It's worth noting that my normal advice with magic is "do it and see what happens".  When I'm not suggesting that, it should ring warning bells.

That's not to say that there are necessarily no spells you could look at doing.  See if any of the following appeal.

Cast a spell on yourself to help you get over him.  This is in many ways the simplest solution, at least to the immediate situation.  However, it will only work if you're ready for it to. You'd have to really want to get over him deep down.

Cast a general "find me love" spell.  Not about him, just a spell to help you find what you're looking for.  This has a lot to recommend it.  It's not specific to a certain person, it's just hopefully helping put you in the situation where you can find romantic happiness with someone suitable and available.

Cast a spell to help your build your self confidence.  Or a series of spells; this kind of selfwork is often best approached as an ongoing project rather then a one-off.  This is probably my most recommended solution if it appeals.  Feeling better in yourself will help you romantically.  And, more importantly, it's a good outcome for its own sake.

 

Thanks for your concern.
PrincessKLS

Faemon

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Quote from: Jabberwocky;169056
my normal advice with magic is "do it and see what happens".  When I'm not suggesting that, it should ring warning bells.

That's what I suggested, though. Why am I more depraved and morally bankrupt than you are? :p I promise you that I'm asking in all amusement and curiosity. Though this

Quote
You'd be doing the magical equivalent of juggling with nitroglycerin.


partially answers it for me because as an inner alchemist, explosions are the best part because that means something is getting somewhere else very very fast.



To the title question: yes, philosophies are wildly irreconcilably and inseparably SO VERY different that I almost never know what two magicians are talking about anymore. There are so many more other magics than the type that you've been reading about, PrincessKLS.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 03:06:07 pm by Faemon »
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Quote from: veggiewolf;169040
Veggie, who can't believe there were no magical ethics classes at Hogwarts.

 
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