collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Charging for the Craft  (Read 6624 times)

Owl

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 587
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 24
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Other
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2012, 02:49:00 pm »
Quote from: r2squared;37854
.


 I'm an accountant, and I do taxes for a number of people.  I charge less than the big chain tax preparers, but still I make about $50 an hour after my costs when I do a tax return.  Should I feel bad about charging this?  I have 15 years of experience and a university degree in doing this sort of thing.  People are paying me to do it so that they feel it is done right.  

How is charging for my time dong anything magical different?  

I pay others to do tarot readings for me because I tend to influence the cards too much and another person also sees things I won't since I am "inside" the reading rather than outside.  

I charge when I teach Reiki classes, is that wrong?  It takes my time, my energy, space in my house, my coffee/tea/sodas/munchies.  How is it wrong to charge?

I make lotions and salves and soaps (among other things) and sell them at renaissance faires - am I wrong to charge?  How is that different from charging to make a magical ointment?  Time, energy, ingredients.  All of these come from the maker in one way or another, why shouldn't they be charged for?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 02:49:40 pm by Owl »
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

catja6

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 380
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2012, 03:22:54 pm »
Quote from: r2squared;37854
.

 
Like many others have said, I'm not sure why I should be *expected* to give up my time, energy and labor for free.  Like Valentine, I don't see magic as some kind of sooper-special thing that is somehow cut off from my more everyday skill sets; I'm a university professor teaching classes on folklore and myth, and I get paid to share my knowledge.  A lot of the knowledge that I've picked up and share as part of my job is incorporated into my religious and magical practices, and vice versa -- last week I wound up delivering a 30-minute lecture on Hermes (who is, along with Hekate, the main god I follow), in the context of a class discussion on trickster figures.

This doesn't mean that I'm unwilling to share my knowledge for free -- I do it all the time here.  But this is my time and my choice and if I'm feeling overwhelmed I can step away.  If anyone wanted to take my fairy tale or folk narrative classes -- with the full experience of weekly lectures, assigned readings, class discussions, and graded papers -- they'd have to register at the university where I work and pay the fee.

Catherine

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 990
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2012, 07:57:14 pm »
Quote from: Rowanfox;38434

This, in my opinion, is more about personal integrity. If I charge no monetary fee, i can choose with total control who I teach, and what spells I choose to cast. The exchange of money for those things can give the illusion that the payer has the choice to demand certain things in return for the money; and my craft, my religion, is not for sale.


I've heard this before and to be honest, I've never understood it. Just because someone wants something, doesn't mean you have to give it to them. Or in this case, sell it to them. I've always maintained complete control over what spells I cast, what information I share, and who I share it with. I've never felt obligated to do anything that I didn't want to do, or that I felt was unethical, no matter how much money I was offered.

I'm not saying your feelings are wrong, I'm just wondering why you feel the way you do. How does charging take away your control?

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3119
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 660
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2012, 08:58:41 pm »
Quote from: Catherine;39338

I'm not saying your feelings are wrong, I'm just wondering why you feel the way you do. How does charging take away your control?

 
People come into financial transactions with expectations, a lot of the time: they want it to be this nice tidy clean-cut "I give you money, you do this thing for me."

There are times that's okay. But there are times it gets awfully messy. There are often expectations of *how* you do stuff - and if someone doesn't like that, they can feel like it's their right to throw a fit over it, badmouth you to someone else, etc.

(And this happens in service professions, too, even when you're not getting directly paid by the person who's talking to you: the number of librarians I know who have "Well, I pay your salary, and you ought to do X differently just to suit me." stories is pretty high.)

So, if you don't accept money - if someone's got to be a friend (or a friend of a friend) and you agreed to do the work as a favor, or a more direct exchange of time/effort/etc. (I'll do this for you if you'll teach me to do X thing), it's often a lot less messy and fraught.

And for a lot of people, it's also a lot easier to set boundaries.

I talked about this a bit above: my job *pays* me to be nice and helpful to people, on demand, all day. (And it pays for me to apply the time and effort I put into education, grad school, and a whole lot of reading and personal learning to do it - not that different from my witchy skills, except for the bits involving actual diplomas.)

So, when I come home, I recognise that I'm already, to some extent, programmed to say "Yes." to people in a certain way. If I took money for some kinds of help - because, hi, librarians are not paid that much, even if the cost of living is in my favor where I am now - it'd be really tempting to spend more of my time helping people. (Because I *like* helping people. But I also admit that more money for travel and books and music wouldn't hurt.)

But if I did that, I'd spend less time doing other things that are good for me. Taking time to focus on the things I want to do, not feeding that "I must help!" seed all the time. Choosing that how I share magic and ritual are generally personal things: things I gladly share with friends, or even friends-of-friends, or public conversations. But where I don't have (other than some specific tradition commitments), an obligation to be there for them all the time.

If I were going to treat it like a serious potential income, I'd feel compelled to be 'on' for that possibility a lot more. And that wouldn't be healthy for me - or eventually, for the witchy work.

There are magical traditions where the boundaries are, I think, a lot clearer - hoodoo, for example, certainly has a really clear "You pay your money, you get your thing, here are the expected social etiquette bits about how that works, you go away." But the stuff that informs my witchcraft culture has lost that. (And because of the dual population of people who mostly do for themselves - other practitioners - and people who treat it like a standard retail or service interaction, I think it's particularly complicated) When, at least in how I do magic, it's not that simple: every bit of magic has a bit of me in it.

This brings up an obvious comparison with sex-for-money: I think it's okay for people to do that if they want. I'm pretty sure I don't want to, and that *for me* it'd be a decision destructive to other things that I need to be a happy human being, and destructive to the way I'd look at other relationships doing those things in other parts of my life.

I'm pretty much in the same place with magic for money: I have some concerns about whether it's done well, and how some advertising and 'customer education' approaches affect the larger community. But beyond that, I'm fine with people making different decisions than I'd make. Variety makes the world go round.
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Catherine

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 990
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2012, 09:36:35 am »
Quote from: Jenett;39341



I guess my experiences with this sort of thing have been different. They've been in a shop setting where we were selling magical supplies anyway. So if there was a day that was good for, say... prosperity, we'd go in the back and make a batch of prosperity oil, or powder, or what have you, to have on hand for those people who were looking for something already mixed and ready.

Of course, there would be instructions about how to use it and the customer would also have to put their own energy into it. It was rare that we'd do a specific spell for an individual, though. A few times, but not often.

I don't consider selling a ready made potion to be any different than selling the individual components, except that it can be more cost effective for certain customers. As far as using my own energy, I don't have a problem with that because if I can help someone out, I consider that a good thing.

I was asked many times to do things that I felt were unethical, and refused to do it, but I did explain why I wouldn't get involved. Just the same way I'd refuse to help people create their own spells for things that I felt were wrong, but I would offer an alternative.

So, I guess I have a lot of practice saying no.

Anyway, this whole topic is interesting to me because eventually, I'd like to own my own shop. It's good to know what people want and don't want, and understanding both sides of this issue is important to me.

Luna

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 19
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2012, 10:42:21 am »
Quote from: r2squared;37854
I'm curious as to what one describes as charging people for The Craft. Most witches and pagans that I have met have come to look down upon anyone casting a spell or doing anything magickal for a fee, but I also know that many of us live near metaphysical and occult stores that will also sell psychic reading and other services for a fee.

In the case of charging people for the Craft, would you count psychic, tarot readers, mediums, and that sort as falling into this category, and how do you personally feel towards it?

I just remember going to a "New Earth" festive a couple months back, and the room was filled to the brim with all sorts of psychic healers, mediums, fortunes tellers, and the works. I was honestly a little put back by it. After all, as witches and pagans, we should be able to do all of that for ourselves. I feel like those people are preying on the people going into festivals or stores like that and not really understanding that they have the power themselves to do what they're doing...either that or maybe their customers simply can't be bothered to learn what it takes to know in order to become more psychically aware.
In my personal opinion, I think it's a shame to want to use something as pure and sacred as our Craft for monetary gain.

 
Dearest R2Squared, Great subject !  I live in the northeast section of Massachusetts, and forty years ago there was and still is a famous Witch in the area I lived in, this particular Witch charges a lot of money, for various classes. So there I was, 17 and searching, I believed in all the basic beliefs of the Craft, I just didn't know the name associated with those beliefs. My journey took another 30 years, because I never believed instruction in the Craft should be sold. We are here to pass on our knowledge, beliefs and practices to those that are searching. How many have been turned away from the Craft due to lack of money ?
I know the path I took was the right one for me, I did my research, I studied the old ways, adapted them to my lifestyle. I raised my children in the Path without knowing it was the Path at first. I never paid anyone, or took classes, and found my way. I also believe that we don't need this athama, that alter, or any expensive adornment. Our intentions, and thoughts and deeds make us what we are, the Goddess knows that. I behave , live, work and function within the Rede as much as I can. I will help anyone that asks, free of charge.
If I were a shopkeeper, I would sell items, but not sell classes teaching Witchcraft. In the time before time, all was passed down, and taught. We as Sisters are charged by History to continue to teach, by example, and pass along the Ways, and not put a price tag on them.
So R2Squared, thank you again for bringing up this subject, I had shelved my deep feelings regarding this subject and you have given me an outlet to release those old thoughts.   Blessings, Luna.

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3119
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 660
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2012, 11:29:53 am »
Quote from: Catherine;39401
I guess my experiences with this sort of thing have been different. They've been in a shop setting where we were selling magical supplies anyway. So if there was a day that was good for, say... prosperity, we'd go in the back and make a batch of prosperity oil, or powder, or what have you, to have on hand for those people who were looking for something already mixed and ready.


I do think it's a bit different in a shop setting (and I think part of the confusion of this thread is that we've got a bunch of different situations in play: shops vs. consulting work vs. "Hey, would you do this thing" casual stuff, etc.) They're different settings, so of course people have different responses to them.

Quote
I don't consider selling a ready made potion to be any different than selling the individual components, except that it can be more cost effective for certain customers. As far as using my own energy, I don't have a problem with that because if I can help someone out, I consider that a good thing.


As I said above - it's not that I don't like helping! I do.

But I'm also painfully aware (especially after the medical issues of the past two years) that my energy is finite. I'm only *barely* at the point, stamina-wise, where I can reliably tidy the house, prep for ritual, and *do* ritual work on the same day again (and it can't be a workday, still.) For the past two years, it's been a four-day process: tidy one day, make sure everything's set up, do the ritual, and then tidy up from it on the last day.

That kind of thing does make one look *really* carefully at where your energy is going. Throughout that time, I've been really thoughtful about where I'm spending my energy, because it's been "If I do X, I won't have the focus to do Y." for such a long time. And a life with all X and no Y probably isn't healthy. (Especially when Y is things like having the focus and attention for job applications, or keeping up with bills or or necessary housework...)

So in a situation like you describe - I could put my energy into sales to someone else (in a method that I'm personally not sure would be terribly effective for other people: like I said, my own method of doing magic is very much energy-flow-through-me, and materials help, but are not the core foundation of why something works).

But I'd be shorting that energy other places in my life - like my own ritual work with my Gods, my commitments to my tradition, and so on and so forth. Which is not good. That's been true even when my energy levels have been much better: too much time with magic, and I do less information sharing in other ways (as a librarian) and that's not cool either.

(I am also in the category - as I've said before - that my day job is a religious vocation for me, but about other stuff than magic, and that I believe I'm far healthier not relying on witchy stuff for my income. Some people make it work just fine - but some people make jobs as astrophysicists work just fine, and I couldn't do that either.)
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

GaiaDianne

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 94
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2012, 01:42:40 pm »
Quote from: Luna;39416


We are here to pass on our knowledge, beliefs and practices to those that are searching.



GAIADIANNE REPLYING:

Hello and Merry Meet, Luna.  

I've heard this idea from many others, who seem to just assume it's a valid statement.  You are certainly entitled to believe what you wish, but i would like to offer some different perspective on it, if i may -- which i hope you will prayerfully consider.

This is from an article i wrote some time ago on "Why Teachers Should be Careful About Teaching Magic" --  I'll upload the full article to the "Articles" section of the Cauldron.

A. “Democratic” Ideals not a part of Metaphysics:
In recent years, there has developed among many Pagan wannabes and beginners , an attitude of “democracy” about learning and practicing.  Democracy isn’t just about politics, it’s also an attitude / assumption that all knowledge is for everyone, and should be available for the asking.

While that might be very true of *general* knowledge (and therefore has become a hallmark of education) it is *not* (and never has been) true of Metaphysics.

We tend to understand this in some contexts: for example, few would give knowledge of how to build an atomic bomb (or other “WofMD”)  to a group of hotheaded, extremist terrorists, for obvious reasons.  The same is true of the Powers of the Gods – one (should) beware giving information on how to do spell-craft, for example, to someone who wants to “make somebody love me” or “make my parents change their minds about letting me date”, or whatever.

B.  Magical Ethics:

 Most Wiccans (and many other Pagans) seem to have at least a basic understanding of the Wiccan Rede, but they frequently forget that is just the *beginning* of magickal ethics -- There are several other important ethical principles.

C.  Determining a Student’s Readiness for Training:
A responsible teacher carefully examines the attitudes, values, and behaviors of any potential student,  --  their wisdom, maturity, self-control, commitment, self-discipline, etc -- *before* giving them information which might prove to be a curse to them or others around them (if they were to use that information carelessly, irresponsibly, or unwisely).  

This can even be found in many fictional stories about metaphysics:  Remember how many a “crotchety” old teacher (like Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda in "Star Wars", or Mr. Miyogi in “The Karate Kid”) put their potential student(s) through various ‘tests” to determine their readiness and worthiness for Training?

The practice of asking strangers for spells is (somewhat pejoratively) called “Spell-Begging”, and while it (unfortunately) does tend to be done in beginner chats and discussion Groups, it is strongly discouraged by experienced Wiccans and other magic-users, for several reasons.  
 
 
D.   Ethical Responsibilities of Teachers:
This is admittedly a principle that even many “intermediate” students don’t seem to realize.  Here’s how it was put in an excellent article titled, “So You Think You’ve Found a Teacher” by Valerie Voigt --
(see http://www.spelcastor.org/teacher.htm )

Quote
   “Magickal Training FORGES A PERMANENT KARMIC LINK Between Teacher and Student.

Let's take that one again, to impress it upon the mind:

MAGICKAL TRAINING
FORGES
A ***PERMANENT***
KARMIC LINK
BETWEEN TEACHER AND STUDENT.

Yes, that's right -- PERMANENT LINK.”

[End quote, Valerie Voigt, “So You Think You’ve Found a Teacher”, http://www.spelcastor.org/teacher.htm ]

This is another reason why responsible teachers are very careful to examine the character, personality and maturity of any potential student –As teachers, they are *responsible* for whatever the student may do with the knowledge/ training the Teacher gives them – In many (especially Traditional) systems of Wicca, at least until the student reaches Third (or Highest) degree in that particular Wiccan system or Tradition, and a “Cutting of the Cords” Ritual is performed, which sets them free of that responsibility.

This is also why a student should exercise caution, discretion and  good  judgment when deciding to apprentice with any teacher: the teacher’s problems, as well as their skills and strengths, could tend to get passed along, through the karmic link. Thus, a student will want to choose a teacher whom they respect as a person, AND who has a reasonably good control over her/his life.  
 
The term, "Spell-Begging" is a (somewhat pejorative) one that's often used to describe the (beginner's)  practice of asking for spells.  It is considered a major "no-no" by most experienced Wiccans, for good reason:

Quote
“…..An important thing to realize though is traditionally, witches do not ask strangers for spells. There is never any need to. When you do, you come off sounding at best a little naive, and at worst like a complete fool - especially those who insist that, “Of course all witches should help each other with any information they have.” Wrong. Traditionally witches understand the training that needs to come before spell working and they don't need that kind of help. And even more importantly, they are ethically obligated to not give information out to anyone whom they do not know personally, and cannot trust to use the information correctly.   So, if you find someone offering to teach you magic or give you spells whom you do not know very well, in person, then you can be sure they have not been trained as witches and are not qualified to give the information they are offering. This is an all to frequent occurrence in online “chat rooms” and e-mail discussions groups.”    

(Forest Butera, http://www.bluemoonwicca.org/spells.html)

Here’s another quote on this issue, from “Magic; Rites of Passage; Paths of Power”  - http://bluemoonwicca.org/class09.html

 “
Quote
The knowledge of how to do magic is a gift revealed to us by the gods when we take the trouble to get to know them and honor them. Doing magic is much more than following a "spell" recipe in a book. Spell books do exist, but only to provide examples and suggestions. Traditionally trained Wiccans do not depend on spell books for their magic.

“Teachers of traditional Wicca are very careful of choosing to whom they teach magic. The teacher is responsible for what happens to the knowledge they provide so they must be absolutely sure of the intentions and ethics of the student. For this reason you will not find traditional Wiccans talking freely to strangers about how to do magic nor do they give out "spells".

Traditional Wicca teachers guide qualified students through the process of designing their own spells when the time is right.”

End quote, http://bluemoonwicca.org/class09.html

C. Focusing On The Basics:
   Spell-casting is an advanced skill set, which requires mastery of a number of other, basic, essential skills.  IMO, Students should therefore begin with the BASICS – like Centering, Grounding, Cleansing, Shielding, Visualizations, Meditation, Creating Sacred Space (including Casting Circle).  Teaching spell-craft (or indeed any other magickal work) to a beginner is like trying to teach advanced Calculus to someone who has little or no experience of basic Math.

In fact, as many a beginner has discovered, to their surprise and distress -- there are very real issues  – and even (potential) dangers – involved with practicing ritual, divination, spell-craft (or other psychic/ metaphysical activities) and magick, with little preparation or training.  

And it’s important to remember that such “training” includes not just “information” (though that is certainly an important aspect) – but perhaps even more importantly, it involves acquiring and mastering personal – (emotional, mental, spiritual) qualities – like discipline, focus, integrity.  Serious problems can occur when one takes on the study and activities of metaphysics without the accompanying self-discovery and self-discipline.  

Here’s a quote, on the use of the (rather pejorative term) “Fluffy Bunnies”, from “Wicca for the Rest of Us” at http://wicca.cnbeyer.com/fluffy.shtml
Quote
“Fluffy Bunnies” think speaking a few words out of a book over a candle is how one makes magic. An entire library of books will not allow you to practice magic on their own. Magic involves belief, focus, practice, and serious intention. It also involves responsibility and a healthy dose of common sense. One class on magic at the local new-age store does not bestow mad majickkal skilz.”

(End quote)

I have elsewhere discussed the fact that we all have an internal “Shadow” which can cause us problems, especially in the practice of Metaphysics – (Please see “Magick, Metaphysics & The Shadow” here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BeginningWicca/message/19747 )

This is (partly) why nearly every metaphysical system has (at some point) a way designed within it, to lead the Seeker to confront and work through this “Shadow” -- It's crucial work for anyone wanting to pursue a metaphysical path.


So there are reasons why taking a more "democratic" position (specifically, that all knowledge should be available to everyone who requests it) in  passing on (metaphysical) knowledge can be problematic -- even dangerous; and why many of us feel that there are good reasons for the Witches Pyramid which says,

"To Know, To Will, To Dare -- and To Keep Silent."

(For more on the Witches Pyramid, please see for example:
http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/enchanted-moon/pyramid.htm


Blessed Be ~ GaiaDianne

GaiaDianne

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 94
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2012, 01:51:45 pm »
Quote from: Luna;39416

 In the time before time, all was passed down, and taught. We as Sisters are charged by History to continue to teach, by example, and pass along the Ways, and not put a price tag on them.  




GAIADIANNE:

Hi Again, Luna --

May i ask, what makes you say/ believe this, please?

I've heard this idea repeated by others, often as part of the "Wicca is an ancient religion" myth (which has long been debunked by even Pagan and Feminist scholars).  And the idea is never accompanied by any actual historical or ethnographical information to back it up.  

On the contrary, i've heard that there was always a reasonable "payment" or exchange for services rendered -- often in trade or barter.  


Blessed Be ~ GaiaDianne

Catherine

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 990
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2012, 04:24:34 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;39419

As I said above - it's not that I don't like helping! I do.


Let me clear something up. I wasn't trying to imply that you don't like helping people, that would just be ridiculous considering how much time and energy you put into teaching, organizing events, your blog, your posts here, etc. presumably, to help people. I'm sorry if that's how that statement came across to you. That wasn't my point at all.

I was just trying to say that it's one way that I've been able to help people.

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3119
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 660
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2012, 04:36:17 pm »
Quote from: Catherine;39458

I was just trying to say that it's one way that I've been able to help people.


Oh, I didn't take offense. Just pointing out there are also dangers to helping too much, or to certain parts of the equation around help.

Here's a question for you: in some ways a store setting solves a lot of the difficulties I mentioned: when you're there, you can do stuff, when you're not there, there's a natural separation.

Have you had experiences with people coming up to you outside the store setting and wanting to pay you for magical work? How has that gone, in general?

(To pull this back to my work discussion: I answer reference questions all the time outside of work, too. But mostly for friends: if someone came up, they might get five minutes of my time (and often do), but they don't get half an hour (or hours, as I can and have done for friends.)
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Catherine

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 990
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2012, 05:12:55 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;39459

Have you had experiences with people coming up to you outside the store setting and wanting to pay you for magical work? How has that gone, in general?


Actually, no. Outside of the shop, I can't think of a time when anyone's offered me money to cast a spell for them.

So yeah, there is a separation there.

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10172
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 254
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2012, 06:54:10 pm »
Quote from: GaiaDianne;39435

A. “Democratic” Ideals not a part of Metaphysics:
[....]
While that might be very true of *general* knowledge (and therefore has become a hallmark of education) it is *not* (and never has been) true of Metaphysics.

You state this as a fact, yet you provide no evidence to support it.
Quote
Most Wiccans (and many other Pagans) seem to have at least a basic understanding of the Wiccan Rede, but they frequently forget that is just the *beginning* of magickal ethics -- There are several other important ethical principles.

The Wiccan Rede actually says nothing about charging others (or harming others) for that matter: it simply states that anything that causes no harm is certainly ethical. Also, it is called the "Wiccan" Rede because it a teaching of Wicca. It isn't a universal teaching found in all Pagan religions.  It generally is not a belief in non-religious forms of magic either.

Quote
This is another reason why responsible teachers are very careful to examine the character, personality and maturity of any potential student –As teachers, they are *responsible* for whatever the student may do with the knowledge/ training the Teacher gives them

Some believe this but I don't really think it is true, any more than a science teacher is responsible if some student takes the knowledge they gained in science class and uses it to create a new type of weapon of mass destruction.  The person acting is the one responsible in many ethical systems.

Quote
This is also why a student should exercise caution, discretion and  good  judgment when deciding to apprentice with any teacher: the teacher’s problems, as well as their skills and strengths, could tend to get passed along, through the karmic link.

This is true of just about any relationship beyond that of stranger.

Quote
Teaching spell-craft (or indeed any other magickal work) to a beginner is like trying to teach advanced Calculus to someone who has little or no experience of basic Math.

Not all magical systems believe this.

Quote
In fact, as many a beginner has discovered, to their surprise and distress -- there are very real issues  – and even (potential) dangers – involved with practicing ritual, divination, spell-craft (or other psychic/ metaphysical activities) and magick, with little preparation or training.

This depends on what they try. Summoning entities? Yes, that could be a major issue. Simple divination, basic everyday spells, etc. Not nearly so much.

NOTE: I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm simply pointing out that much of what you state as fact is really opinion that is not held by everyone.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

Morag

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: deep in the woods
  • *
  • Posts: 2389
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 113
  • cranky witch
    • View Profile
    • Everyday Magic
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: zie/zir or she/her
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2012, 09:53:38 pm »
Quote from: Luna;39416
We as Sisters are charged by History to continue to teach, by example, and pass along the Ways, and not put a price tag on them.

 
Not everyone who practices witchcraft is a woman, fyi. And many of us have issues with familial-like relationships being forced on us by people we don't know.
Pray drunk. Hex sober.
Everyday Magic | Morag's Spindle
"The most powerful god at any given moment is the one who can solve the moment's problem."
-Darkhawk

Luna

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 19
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Charging for the Craft
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2012, 12:03:13 am »
Quote from: GaiaDianne;39437
GAIADIANNE:

Hi Again, Luna --

May i ask, what makes you say/ believe this, please?

I've heard this idea repeated by others, often as part of the "Wicca is an ancient religion" myth (which has long been debunked by even Pagan and Feminist scholars).  And the idea is never accompanied by any actual historical or ethnographical information to back it up.  

On the contrary, i've heard that there was always a reasonable "payment" or exchange for services rendered -- often in trade or barter.  


Blessed Be ~ GaiaDianne

 Dear GaiaDianne, I enjoyed your responses, you have answered them in much more depth than I. I also agree and believe that sharing our knowledge isn't done lightly, and that there is responsibility with everything said, and done. I believe that is a personal conduct issue for me. As for my beliefs about passing on the ways, I am referring to my Pagan beliefs. I believe Wicca is new compared to Paganism. Thank you for your responses, I believe our differences make us great, and our ability to listen and learn make us even greater. Sunny skies and Moonlit nights, Luna.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
1 Replies
571 Views
Last post April 25, 2013, 02:04:24 pm
by RandallS
0 Replies
667 Views
Last post April 14, 2014, 08:12:22 pm
by NePlusUltra
8 Replies
1077 Views
Last post June 06, 2015, 12:44:52 am
by Mellee
0 Replies
2467 Views
Last post June 29, 2015, 02:57:35 pm
by RandallS
6 Replies
1034 Views
Last post June 17, 2017, 06:44:36 pm
by Dynes Hysbys

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 26
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 3
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall