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Author Topic: Magic and natural laws  (Read 3879 times)

random417

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Magic and natural laws
« on: September 11, 2014, 12:04:34 pm »
Inspired by another thread, and so as to not derail it, I decided I should start my own.

Magick being part of the universe, must follow some set of natural laws. The problem is that belief in magick requires a different set of natural laws than those  who don't. Maybe not changing the common ones, but at least adding a way by which our magick effects that which is around us.

Now, I'm not looking your the common ones, like gravity, but the underlying causes.

Postulate 1:Hermetics brings us the doctrine of the mind "all is mental". Quantum mechanics brings us observer influenced reality. So, our mind must affect the way the universe works, and the way our magic works

Question 1: To what extent does mind influence what we perceive as natural law?
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

carillion

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Re: Magic and natural laws
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2014, 02:49:19 pm »
Quote from: random417;158720


The problem is that belief in magick requires a different set of natural laws than those  who don't.

Question 1: To what extent does mind influence what we perceive as natural law?


First, I don't agree that new laws are in force so new statutes need to be inacted:) . I also don't think we understand a tithe of the intereaction of 'mind' and matter. So I don't think the question is  the effect of our *perceptions* of natural law so much as what processes are we attempting to use/work with?

And since we don't know,it's kind of like asking where we think unicorns sleep.

HeartShadow

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Re: Magic and natural laws
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2014, 03:23:49 pm »
Quote from: random417;158720


 

That's .. not how quantum physics works.  Observable reality doesn't change the fact that even with the lights out, that lego is still on the floor and still hurts like hell to step on.  As far as the observer is concerned, there IS no lego.  ...until you step on the plastic caltrop of doom.

There may be laws, but physical reality trumps EVERYTHING.

Faemon

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Re: Magic and natural laws
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2014, 10:41:19 pm »
Quote from: random417;158720
The problem is that belief in magick requires a different set of natural laws than those  who don't. Maybe not changing the common ones, but at least adding a way by which our magick effects that which is around us.

I'd actually take it from a standpoint of experience, first, when it comes to magic. The theories to explain that experience become laws, but the laws themselves are constructs that we create to make sense of experience. Laws are not, in and of themselves, a natural phenomenon.

So, in our law-making rationalizing way...the mind is everything. It still, I believe, must cope with not-mind, especially the not-conscious-mind, but even the adjustments that it makes for that rely on a system of senses and reasoning that are...mind.

So, I believe that it's all nature, but comprehension of the magical life and the mundane life how one interfaces another is what's different. Gnosis, science, and...whatever a mix of them might be. Magic is just the technology equivalent of the subjective (not empirical) experience.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 10:41:54 pm by Faemon »
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RandallS

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Re: Magic and natural laws
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2014, 03:53:11 pm »
Quote from: random417;158720
Postulate 1:Hermetics brings us the doctrine of the mind "all is mental". Quantum mechanics brings us observer influenced reality. So, our mind must affect the way the universe works, and the way our magic works

The observer effect really doesn't say anything about mental influence on reality, just that to put it very simply) you can't predict certain quantum things -- you have to actually look.  A lot of people try to read a lot more into the "observer effect" beyond what it actually is.
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random417

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Re: Magic and natural laws
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2014, 05:28:54 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;158832
The observer effect really doesn't say anything about mental influence on reality, just that to put it very simply) you can't predict certain quantum things -- you have to actually look.  A lot of people try to read a lot more into the "observer effect" beyond what it actually is.
Apologies to all, I start a conversation, then I had a sick kiddo to deal with. Anyway, alright, that seems to be a sticking point for many, so I'll back up a step.

Question 0 then: for those of us that practice, magic has an effect. While possibly only measurable subjectively or indirectly, but an effect through indirect means on the physical world. What then is the agent or agents of that physical manifestation of the Will?
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

Sefiru

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Re: Magic and natural laws
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2014, 06:53:12 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;158832
The observer effect really doesn't say anything about mental influence on reality, just that to put it very simply) you can't predict certain quantum things -- you have to actually look.  A lot of people try to read a lot more into the "observer effect" beyond what it actually is.

 
Here is the explanation I like to pull out when "observer effect" comes up. The only way we have to observe particles is to throw other particles (usually photons or electrons) at them. It's like trying to find a tennis ball in the dark by throwing other tennis balls at it; if you hit, you hear a sound where the ball was, but the ball you threw has now knocked it somewhere else.

Note that this only has to do with the nature of the measurement apparatus, and not the presence of a conscious mind.

Faemon

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Re: Magic and natural laws
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2014, 12:58:00 am »
Quote from: random417;158834
While possibly only measurable subjectively or indirectly, but an effect through indirect means on the physical world. What then is the agent or agents of that physical manifestation of the Will?

Otherworlds and subtle energies, daemons as taught by Diotima of Mantinea that carry intentions to the gods...

I used to try to turn this into a science, too, but since there's no consistent empirical evidence of magic manifesting our will, because real life isn't a laboratory...well, my "research" sort of took a turn for "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" territory (although there is an answer for that, angels being immediately present in contrast to G-d's omniscient presence, an infinite number can fit on a pinhead.)

While I've experienced something that I can't help but conclude are otherworlds, and something that I can't help but conclude is some force that responds to my intentions within that/those otherworld(s), my going hypothesis right now is a sort of resonance between the magic I work and the life that I live. The experience of multiple worlds give me a wider palette, but I just suspect that any attribution of like "action x causes y result" is...illusionary, sort of? Causality is more like a constantly resolved paradox. Like, technically this world is locked to the next by however symbols they'd resonate with, but they wouldn't go the way they would have if I hadn't acted as if the otherworld responded to my magical will. If I accept the illusion, then it would seem "action x causes y result" through magic, which is cool...but...incomplete? I mean, if I wanted to explain it.
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WizardryWisdom

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Re: Magic and natural laws
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2014, 06:44:20 pm »
Quote from: random417;158720
Inspired by another thread, and so as to not derail it, I decided I should start my own.

Magick being part of the universe, must follow some set of natural laws. The problem is that belief in magick requires a different set of natural laws than those  who don't. Maybe not changing the common ones, but at least adding a way by which our magick effects that which is around us.

Now, I'm not looking your the common ones, like gravity, but the underlying causes.

Postulate 1:Hermetics brings us the doctrine of the mind "all is mental". Quantum mechanics brings us observer influenced reality. So, our mind must affect the way the universe works, and the way our magic works

Question 1: To what extent does mind influence what we perceive as natural law?

 
You have to quiet your mind and forget how you have been taught to perceive things and learn to observe wth your mind (not your brain) what is actually going on to find the answers. What we consider "magic" is a part of natural law, our brain just can't justify what it can't see like our mind can. Magic is our way of contributing our suggestions to time/space consciousness that binds all of our individual realties together. Learn to create your own laws in your own reality in a way that it can tie into the realities of all the others and you will understand more about both magic and natural laws.

Lokison

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Re: Magic and natural laws
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2014, 09:23:55 am »
Quote from: random417;158720
Magick being part of the universe, must follow some set of natural laws.

 
You are thinking too complex.  The wolf does not know or care how the wind carries the scent to him, he just knows what to do when it does.  The bear does not know or care about the temperature, but when it starts to change, he/she stocks up for winter.

Magic(k) follows 3 'rules', at least according to Chaos Mages

1. Magick is undefined science
2. Laws of Thermodynamics.  ie "energy can be neither created nor destroyed. However, energy can change forms, and energy can flow from one place to another."
3. Soul Ties

All magical interaction and even spellwork, whether ritual or otherwise, falls into those rules above.  Soul Ties are the hardest component to master and can be the most deadly/harmful.
My beliefs are my own.  I do not speak for anyone else.  It is my personal perspective.  
I am not the Way or the Truth.  No Man or Woman can reach their God/dess through me.


When people ask me, "What give you the right to suggest standards for others?",
my answer is, "If I don\'t, someone else, perhaps less qualified, will."
History has proven that qualification is based on acceptance. The end justifies the means. - LaVey

Lumpino

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Re: Magic and natural laws
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2015, 10:15:05 pm »
Quote from: random417;158720


Postulate 1:Hermetics brings us the doctrine of the mind "all is mental". Quantum mechanics brings us observer influenced reality. So, our mind must affect the way the universe works, and the way our magic works

Question 1: To what extent does mind influence what we perceive as natural law?

 
Look for old magick and religion texts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_%28esotericism%29

There are sveral "spitritual" worlds. And higher and finer control lower. So, mental plane is higher than astral and astral is higher than physical.
This is the essence of magic....................
For this reason meditations and others mental exercises. Mind controls the astral and consequently the physical world.

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