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Author Topic: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?  (Read 5567 times)

Zaphaux

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Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« on: November 01, 2012, 12:36:50 pm »
I have read somewhere once that Invocation/Convocation of entities is not recommended, I didn't understand why. Maybe it could offensive for the concerned entity? I don't know. But maybe it isn't true, and it's perfectly safe to do it.

 This is my case: I am almost completely sure that Apollo is acting upon me, like if he wanted to show me he's with me. He is the god of music (the goal of my life) and the dolphin god (my favourite animal, I really love dolphins). But I want to be even more sure, so is there any way to convocate him, like using a mirror, or invocate him within me? What would you recommend me?
 If possible, you could also link me to some web page about it, or books related.

 (I know about that dream thing, when you meditate with a question or with a name in mind, and go sleep hoping for he to appear in my dream, but it never worked for me, I can never remember my dreams)

 Thank you in advance, great blessings for you all!

Zaphaux

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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 02:03:55 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;79097
I have read somewhere once that Invocation/Convocation of entities is not recommended, I didn't understand why. Maybe it could offensive for the concerned entity? I don't know. But maybe it isn't true, and it's perfectly safe to do it.

 This is my case: I am almost completely sure that Apollo is acting upon me, like if he wanted to show me he's with me. He is the god of music (the goal of my life) and the dolphin god (my favourite animal, I really love dolphins). But I want to be even more sure, so is there any way to convocate him, like using a mirror, or invocate him within me? What would you recommend me?
 If possible, you could also link me to some web page about it, or books related.

 (I know about that dream thing, when you meditate with a question or with a name in mind, and go sleep hoping for he to appear in my dream, but it never worked for me, I can never remember my dreams)

 Thank you in advance, great blessings for you all!

 
I think I put this on the wrong section, can an admin delete this thread, please? (I'm putting it in other section, but I'm not flooding, cause I am waiting for this one to be deleted)

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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 02:19:09 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;79097


 
I think this might be a case of something being lost in translation, as well as general misunderstanding and disagreement of what it means to "invoke" a deity. ("Convocation" really isn't used as a religious term in the online Anglophone Pagan-sphere, so I'm not sure where that comes from.)

When I talk about an invocation, it is a way of me calling to a deity and asking for their presence. This might be a prayer, chant, or song; usually, it's something oral or at least written down, as opposed to a silent meditation. (That's just for me, though.) There's no demanding, begging, or wheedling involved. It is an invitation for a deity's presence.

Some people I have run into - notably a local Neo-Wiccan coven member - firmly believed that "invoking" a deity was the same thing as "drawing down the moon/sun/God/Goddess," or essentially drawing the deity into yourself and channeling them. You do not have to do this if you don't want to. I don't. But that is a part of some people's paths.

Some people also draw a different between "invoking" and "evoking" a deity, but I think another poster will have to elaborate on that for me.
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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 02:41:38 pm »
Quote from: Sage;79132

Some people I have run into - notably a local Neo-Wiccan coven member - firmly believed that "invoking" a deity was the same thing as "drawing down the moon/sun/God/Goddess," or essentially drawing the deity into yourself and channeling them. You do not have to do this if you don't want to. I don't. But that is a part of some people's paths.

Some people also draw a different between "invoking" and "evoking" a deity, but I think another poster will have to elaborate on that for me.

 
I've always thought that invoking a deity (or any other deity) means drawing it into yourself, and evoking it means asking (or demanding, in case of Goetian entities and such) for it to be present near you. At least, that's how I heard the terms being used in some of the circles (mostly among Ceremonial Magicians and Thelemites rather than Pagans).

Of course, there's also the schools of thought that don't really distinguish between "internal" and "external" presence, and as such, between invocation and evokation...

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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 02:44:15 pm »
Quote from: Sage;79132

Some people I have run into - notably a local Neo-Wiccan coven member - firmly believed that "invoking" a deity was the same thing as "drawing down the moon/sun/God/Goddess," or essentially drawing the deity into yourself and channeling them. You do not have to do this if you don't want to. I don't. But that is a part of some people's paths.

Some people also draw a different between "invoking" and "evoking" a deity, but I think another poster will have to elaborate on that for me.

 
There's three different pieces here, and different people use the terminology differently, which really complicates things. (And my explanation may be fuzzy: I am dealing with migraine.)

Piece one: inviting the attention of the deity: Some people call this evoking (drawing the essence of the deity out of things that represent the in the ritual space), some people call it invoking (inviting the deity to be present in the circle).

Piece two: inviting the deity to be present in the ritual space. Most usually called invoking. In some cases, also referred to as Drawing Down, in the sense of inviting the power of the deity to fill the circle.

Piece three: inviting the deity to enter into the body of a priestess or priest for specific ritual purposes. Sometimes called invoking, sometimes called Drawing Down, and sometimes called channelling, depending on who's talking about it. This can be a very light presence (a sense of the deity, a feeling for the priest/ess of the deity guiding their choice of words or making certain information more available to them to provide assistance/guidance.) Or it can be very full-blown, the deity taking over the physical body and doing things that are beyond the normal capabilities of the priest/ess.

The first two are quite common ritual occurances, and they don't place any specific expectation on the deity. (They may show up, they may not, etc.)

The last one can be quite dangerous for the person attempting it, and in practice, it does not have a whole lot of benefit much of the time unless someone is doing it in the context of a larger community. (There are much much safer *and* more effective ways for someone to deeply connect with a deity as an individual - meditation, work specific to that deity's interest, dreamwork, etc.)

In my tradition, we include the practice of Drawing Down, but it's not a mandatory skill for taking specific ritual roles or degrees (it is in at least one tradition I know of, after a certain point), and it is something we're carefully trained to *only* do in service of the community, and only with sufficient support/backup/etc. from other people who can help if the priest/ess needs it.

(This covers everything from keeping the energy in the circle running smoothly to avoiding physical risks (falling over something, candleflames, etc.) to making sure the priest/ess comes fully back to themselves afterwards and doesn't attempt to, say, drive home, before they're really back and solidly grounded.)
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Zaphaux

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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 03:11:19 pm »
Quote from: Nachtigall;79134
I've always thought that invoking a deity (or any other deity) means drawing it into yourself, and evoking it means asking (or demanding, in case of Goetian entities and such) for it to be present near you. At least, that's how I heard the terms being used in some of the circles (mostly among Ceremonial Magicians and Thelemites rather than Pagans).

Of course, there's also the schools of thought that don't really distinguish between "internal" and "external" presence, and as such, between invocation and evokation...
Quote from: Sage;79132
I think this might be a case of something being lost in translation, as well as general misunderstanding and disagreement of what it means to "invoke" a deity. ("Convocation" really isn't used as a religious term in the online Anglophone Pagan-sphere, so I'm not sure where that comes from.)

When I talk about an invocation, it is a way of me calling to a deity and asking for their presence. This might be a prayer, chant, or song; usually, it's something oral or at least written down, as opposed to a silent meditation. (That's just for me, though.) There's no demanding, begging, or wheedling involved. It is an invitation for a deity's presence.

Some people I have run into - notably a local Neo-Wiccan coven member - firmly believed that "invoking" a deity was the same thing as "drawing down the moon/sun/God/Goddess," or essentially drawing the deity into yourself and channeling them. You do not have to do this if you don't want to. I don't. But that is a part of some people's paths.

Some people also draw a different between "invoking" and "evoking" a deity, but I think another poster will have to elaborate on that for me.

 When I said "convocation" I probably meant evocation, it was a mistake of mine. I read in some book something like what Nachtigall and Sage's friend that invocation is to bring the entity to manifest inside your body somehow, and that evocation is to bring the entity to appear not inside of your body but make his presence in some way, eventually even the entity would appear for you in its true form (or the form you think that it has).
 Could I say "summoning"? Well, all I want is to directly contact him, but I have no clue of how to do it.

Quote from: Jenett;79137
There's three different pieces here, and different people use the terminology differently, which really complicates things. (And my explanation may be fuzzy: I am dealing with migraine.)

Piece one: inviting the attention of the deity: Some people call this evoking (drawing the essence of the deity out of things that represent the in the ritual space), some people call it invoking (inviting the deity to be present in the circle).

Piece two: inviting the deity to be present in the ritual space. Most usually called invoking. In some cases, also referred to as Drawing Down, in the sense of inviting the power of the deity to fill the circle.

Piece three: inviting the deity to enter into the body of a priestess or priest for specific ritual purposes. Sometimes called invoking, sometimes called Drawing Down, and sometimes called channelling, depending on who's talking about it. This can be a very light presence (a sense of the deity, a feeling for the priest/ess of the deity guiding their choice of words or making certain information more available to them to provide assistance/guidance.) Or it can be very full-blown, the deity taking over the physical body and doing things that are beyond the normal capabilities of the priest/ess.

The first two are quite common ritual occurances, and they don't place any specific expectation on the deity. (They may show up, they may not, etc.)

The last one can be quite dangerous for the person attempting it, and in practice, it does not have a whole lot of benefit much of the time unless someone is doing it in the context of a larger community. (There are much much safer *and* more effective ways for someone to deeply connect with a deity as an individual - meditation, work specific to that deity's interest, dreamwork, etc.)

In my tradition, we include the practice of Drawing Down, but it's not a mandatory skill for taking specific ritual roles or degrees (it is in at least one tradition I know of, after a certain point), and it is something we're carefully trained to *only* do in service of the community, and only with sufficient support/backup/etc. from other people who can help if the priest/ess needs it.

(This covers everything from keeping the energy in the circle running smoothly to avoiding physical risks (falling over something, candleflames, etc.) to making sure the priest/ess comes fully back to themselves afterwards and doesn't attempt to, say, drive home, before they're really back and solidly grounded.)

 This is what I call a great answer. I think of invoking as the second meaning you said it has. The first one (Piece two) sounds more like evokation.
 Also, thank you for the advice about invoking.

(Okay, funny part is that I posted for the admins to delete this thread and now you replied and I realised it's in the right section.)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 03:15:52 pm by Zaphaux »

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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2012, 03:30:35 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;79142
When I said "convocation" I probably meant evocation, it was a mistake of mine. I read in some book something like what Nachtigall and Sage's friend that invocation is to bring the entity to manifest inside your body somehow, and that evocation is to bring the entity to appear not inside of your body but make his presence in some way, eventually even the entity would appear for you in its true form (or the form you think that it has).
 Could I say "summoning"? Well, all I want is to directly contact him, but I have no clue of how to do it.


 
 This is what I call a great answer. I think of invoking as the second meaning you said it has. The first one (Piece two) sounds more like evokation.
 Also, thank you for the advice about invoking.

(Okay, funny part is that I posted for the admins to delete this thread and now you replied and I realised it's in the right section.)


You have a decen understanding of the difference between invocation and evocation.

Invocation being the calling of the being/deity to manifest within you. Drawing down the Moon/Sun is one example of invocation, but not the only one by any means.

Evocation is calling or inviting the being/deity to manifest in your presence, though most of us don't expect them to manifest in actual physical form. Summoning is a synonymous term for this, but implies demand not request so is less polite.

If you just wish to speak with a deity you don't even need to go as far as evoking them. You can simply attempt to commune, the equivalent of a spiritual cell phone call hehe.

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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2012, 04:28:39 pm »
Quote from: Vitkyng;79147
If you just wish to speak with a deity you don't even need to go as far as evoking them. You can simply attempt to commune, the equivalent of a spiritual cell phone call hehe.

 
Yup. I've never tried to embody a deity and I don't really want to. Things like prayer, hymns or just greeting them and asking for their presence is absolutely fine. You can have a fulfilling relationship with a deity with these tools. If you feel like you want to try the kind of invocation/evocation/whatever that involves letting a deity talk through you, that's something that takes time and very careful practice.
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I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

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Zaphaux

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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2012, 05:04:21 pm »
Quote from: Vitkyng;79147
You have a decen understanding of the difference between invocation and evocation.

Invocation being the calling of the being/deity to manifest within you. Drawing down the Moon/Sun is one example of invocation, but not the only one by any means.

Evocation is calling or inviting the being/deity to manifest in your presence, though most of us don't expect them to manifest in actual physical form. Summoning is a synonymous term for this, but implies demand not request so is less polite.

If you just wish to speak with a deity you don't even need to go as far as evoking them. You can simply attempt to commune, the equivalent of a spiritual cell phone call hehe.

 How would I do that? Meditating in his name?

Quote from: Sage;79164
Yup. I've never tried to embody a deity and I don't really want to. Things like prayer, hymns or just greeting them and asking for their presence is absolutely fine. You can have a fulfilling relationship with a deity with these tools. If you feel like you want to try the kind of invocation/evocation/whatever that involves letting a deity talk through you, that's something that takes time and very careful practice.

 What you say is only applicable to invocation, since if one were to evocate a deity then there wouldn't have no sort of embodying or 'letting it talk through you'.

(I have just discovered that number 7 is a sacred number for Apollo, and that's the lifepath result of my birthday, and also of the name "Zaphaux". Also I was born on a year that ends with '7'. ALSO, I was born on the 17th day of SEPTEMBER, which used to be the 7th month of the year. Finally... ALSO, Apollo was born on September too.)

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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2012, 07:35:07 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;79176
How would I do that? Meditating in his name?



Probably it is best beginning.


Quote from: Zaphaux;79176


(I have just discovered that number 7 is a sacred number for Apollo, and that's the lifepath result of my birthday, and also of the name "Zaphaux". Also I was born on a year that ends with '7'. ALSO, I was born on the 17th day of SEPTEMBER, which used to be the 7th month of the year. Finally... ALSO, Apollo was born on September too.)



Apollo and Artemis's birth was celebrated in May, for what I know. Maybe you would  like to look up the Thargelia festival, given your interest in Him. :)
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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2012, 07:46:44 pm »
Quote from: Vitkyng;79147


If you just wish to speak with a deity you don't even need to go as far as evoking them. You can simply attempt to commune, the equivalent of a spiritual cell phone call hehe.

 
:stop: They have Cell Phones?  Do they text?:whis:
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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2012, 08:46:55 pm »
Quote from: mlr52;79214
:stop: They have Cell Phones?  Do they text?:whis:

Sure.  The muffling of the head/speaker-deafness feelings are the phone calls - signs and portents  are the texts. :)

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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2012, 08:55:18 pm »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;79213
Probably it is best beginning.

Apollo and Artemis's birth was celebrated in May, for what I know. Maybe you would  like to look up the Thargelia festival, given your interest in Him. :)

 Well, seems like according to the Delphian tradition, his birthday is on the month "Bysios", which by what I understand was the seventh month. His sacred number is really seven? I read it somewhere
 
Quote from: mlr52;79214
:stop: They have Cell Phones?  Do they text?:whis:

It may explain my headache: he might have texted me and it's on vibracall (:

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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2012, 09:11:51 pm »
Quote from: Zaphaux;79227
Well, seems like according to the Delphian tradition, his birthday is on the month "Bysios", which by what I understand was the seventh month. His sacred number is really seven? I read it somewhere
 

 
There are a lot of different local Greek calendars with different feast days  - I have read of Plutarc and the Delphic calendar mentioning an alternate birthdate celebration for Apollon in a month called 'bysios' but seemingly that corresponded to January/February.

Thargelia instead fits with the Athenian calendar. *shrug* I suppose it goes down to which date one prefers to remember/celebrate.;).

Calendar shenigans truly annoy the heck out of me.

But yes, seven is really His sacred number. Nine too, if memory serves well?
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Zaphaux

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Re: Invocation/Convocation of an entity?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2012, 09:39:46 pm »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;79228
There are a lot of different local Greek calendars with different feast days  - I have read of Plutarc and the Delphic calendar mentioning an alternate birthdate celebration for Apollon in a month called 'bysios' but seemingly that corresponded to January/February.

Thargelia instead fits with the Athenian calendar. *shrug* I suppose it goes down to which date one prefers to remember/celebrate.;).

Calendar shenigans truly annoy the heck out of me.

But yes, seven is really His sacred number. Nine too, if memory serves well?

 
 Bysios can't correspond to January/February, it is located almost in the middle of the year. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_calendars)
 I can't understand this page yet. What are those days written on the side of the first month of each callendar, and why some callendars have a blank space ( - )?
 If I count the months including the blank space, I get Bysios to be the seventh month. But in other hand, if I count the months not including the blank space, then it becomes the sixth month. It's really confusing.

 Anyway, being seven his sacred number, and being September related to the number seven, we can still make a relation between him and September.
 It's interesting what you said, that the number nine can be his sacred number too, cause September is nowadays the 9th month.

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