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Author Topic: Traditional planetary  (Read 4634 times)

RecycledBenedict

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Traditional planetary
« on: March 01, 2016, 02:26:39 pm »
Lots of contemporary books about planetary magic are under the influence of the breach with Tradition Alan Leo initiated (no pun intended) in the 1890s. Source material to planetary magic written before the 1890s have a one-sided positive view on Jupiter and Venus, and a one-sided negative view on Saturn and Mars. Utterly few planetary talismans of Saturn and Mars described before the 1890s are useful for benevolent purposes. Not discussing talismans protecting against spirits here, I can only remember the Picatrix Saturn talisman (against hangover) and the Mathers edition Great Key Mars talisman number two (against all diseases).

I will raise the topic of if and how it would be possible to develop traditional planetary magic in a way making benevolent use of Saturnian and Martial influences, without deteriorating into the rootless fluff of the 20th century.

Agrippa agrees with a correspondence between (planetary) Saturn and agriculture, and with monasteries. It would seem likely, that Saturnian talismans would have a good influence on gardening and the practice of meditation, or do I interpret Agrippa too optimistically here?

Would it be too optimistic, to use Martial rituals for stimulating peace processes, or use Martial talismans for weight-lifting or fitness?

I am interested in listening to your opinions.

Jack

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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2016, 04:43:42 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;187445
Lots of contemporary books about planetary magic are under the influence of the breach with Tradition Alan Leo initiated (no pun intended) in the 1890s. Source material to planetary magic written before the 1890s have a one-sided positive view on Jupiter and Venus, and a one-sided negative view on Saturn and Mars. Utterly few planetary talismans of Saturn and Mars described before the 1890s are useful for benevolent purposes. Not discussing talismans protecting against spirits here, I can only remember the Picatrix Saturn talisman (against hangover) and the Mathers edition Great Key Mars talisman number two (against all diseases).

I will raise the topic of if and how it would be possible to develop traditional planetary magic in a way making benevolent use of Saturnian and Martial influences, without deteriorating into the rootless fluff of the 20th century.

Agrippa agrees with a correspondence between (planetary) Saturn and agriculture, and with monasteries. It would seem likely, that Saturnian talismans would have a good influence on gardening and the practice of meditation, or do I interpret Agrippa too optimistically here?

Would it be too optimistic, to use Martial rituals for stimulating peace processes, or use Martial talismans for weight-lifting or fitness?

I am interested in listening to your opinions.

 
I guess my question is what you view as the "fluff" of the 20th century? What I've done with planetary magic is in a modern, developing tradition that Jason Miller talks about, which does view Mars and Saturn as having positive influences as well as negatives. I don't feel it's at all fluffy, though. He's talked about it some on his blog, for example here and here. Is that along the lines of what you're interested in or no?
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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2016, 07:01:00 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;187445

Agrippa agrees with a correspondence between (planetary) Saturn and agriculture, and with monasteries. It would seem likely, that Saturnian talismans would have a good influence on gardening and the practice of meditation, or do I interpret Agrippa too optimistically here?

Would it be too optimistic, to use Martial rituals for stimulating peace processes, or use Martial talismans for weight-lifting or fitness?

 
It's been a long time since I read the relevant parts of Marsilio Ficino in detail, but I seem to remember his takes on Saturn and Mars being more nuanced. (I've read other parts of his work much more recently, just not the planetary discussions.)

If I remember from various reading at the time, part of the Saturnian agriculture connection is that Saturn is the planet of limitations, which also means life cycle and seasonal cycle in some applications, that things coming to harvest is part of the natural restriction of the life cycle.

(The book I read that was not Ficino himself that talked about this was Gary Tomlinson's Music in Renaissance Magic which had just come out in the previous couple of years at the time.)
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2016, 09:09:08 am »
Quote from: Jack;187451
I guess my question is what you view as the "fluff" of the 20th century?


Bad beginners' books about magic in the 1990s reduced Mars to 'energy'. I blame Alan Leo and Margaret Hone for this. Then there was the Jungian fashion, where the psyche of every man was supposed to work in one and the same way, while the psyche of every woman was supposed to work in an entirely different way. I can't give you any book titles, since I became so disappointed, that I donated these paperbacks to a secondhand bookseller, and turned my attention to Tradition instead.

Quote from: Jack;187451
What I've done with planetary magic is in a modern, developing tradition that Jason Miller talks about, which does view Mars and Saturn as having positive influences as well as negatives. I don't feel it's at all fluffy, though. He's talked about it some on his blog, for example here and here. Is that along the lines of what you're interested in or no?


Yes, that is along the lines of what I am interested in. I like Miller's blog, and I have read one of his books. He avoids the same extremes, that I try to avoid, too. To learn from Tradition is not the same thing as put it in a static, non-growing museum-state, but to develop it further. 'New' does not always mean 'improved', and there are a lot of useful, but forgotten, approaches to magic in older works.

If something works, it would be unwise not to use it, regardless of that the Chaotees deem it 'uncool', and regardless of that a certain milieu would prefer homespun thread produced by pre-pubescent girls - a very unusual sort of thread nowadays.

In my own Chaotic phase, I experimented with IrnBru and gainers in Mars workings. It worked sufficiently, but could probably be improved. Nowadays, I go for Agrippa correspondences.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2016, 09:15:36 am »
Quote from: Jenett;187458
It's been a long time since I read the relevant parts of Marsilio Ficino in detail, but I seem to remember his takes on Saturn and Mars being more nuanced. (I've read other parts of his work much more recently, just not the planetary discussions.)


Thank you for reminding me of this. When I first read Ficino, many years ago, I was irritated on some details of translation. When I re-read it in the last days on your advice, I found that Ficino generally attribute bad correspondences to Mars, with two significant exceptions: He advice to use Martial influences in order to increase efficiency and to reduce timidity.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2016, 09:37:24 am »
Quote from: Jack;187451
What I've done with planetary magic is in a modern, developing tradition that Jason Miller talks about, (...)

Jenett adviced me a few days ago, to re-read Marsilio Ficino, so I did.

Ficino writes, that aggressive music corresponds to Mars (which sounds reasonable). A felicitous application of Tradition on contemporary culture, would, as I see it, be to play The Business and Dropkick Murphys in the background during a Mars working. Gustav Holst's The Planets and The Marini Consort's Secrets of the Heavens are not our only choices.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 09:38:26 am by RecycledBenedict »

Wimsaur

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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2016, 11:04:09 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;187445
Lots of contemporary books about planetary magic are under the influence of the breach with Tradition Alan Leo initiated (no pun intended) in the 1890s. Source material to planetary magic written before the 1890s have a one-sided positive view on Jupiter and Venus, and a one-sided negative view on Saturn and Mars. Utterly few planetary talismans of Saturn and Mars described before the 1890s are useful for benevolent purposes. Not discussing talismans protecting against spirits here, I can only remember the Picatrix Saturn talisman (against hangover) and the Mathers edition Great Key Mars talisman number two (against all diseases).

I will raise the topic of if and how it would be possible to develop traditional planetary magic in a way making benevolent use of Saturnian and Martial influences, without deteriorating into the rootless fluff of the 20th century.

Agrippa agrees with a correspondence between (planetary) Saturn and agriculture, and with monasteries. It would seem likely, that Saturnian talismans would have a good influence on gardening and the practice of meditation, or do I interpret Agrippa too optimistically here?

Would it be too optimistic, to use Martial rituals for stimulating peace processes, or use Martial talismans for weight-lifting or fitness?

I am interested in listening to your opinions.
Greetings,

There is an often overlooked book that I find very helpful for understanding the planets as they relate to the zodiac.

Tarot decks based in the hermetic tradition (Golden Dawn, Thoth, Liber T, Hermetic, Tarot of Ceremonial Magick, etc) include planetary and zodiacal attributes on all 36 pip cards (2s-10s), as well as the major arcana, and court cards.

For example, the 2 of cups is attributed to Venus in Cancer. If you place the Empress (Venus) on one side, and the Chariot (Cancer) on the other side, the cards become a mandala to better understand this relationship.

Further, if you place all pip cards corresponding to Venus around the Empress, you can get a sense of the personality of the same.



You can further connect the Empress card at her feet to the pips to see the relationship for each zodiac sign.

-Wimsaur.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2016, 06:06:46 am »
Quote from: Wimsaur;187801
Greetings,

There is an often overlooked book that I find very helpful for understanding the planets as they relate to the zodiac.

Tarot decks based in the hermetic tradition (Golden Dawn, Thoth, Liber T, Hermetic, Tarot of Ceremonial Magick, etc) include planetary and zodiacal attributes on all 36 pip cards (2s-10s), as well as the major arcana, and court cards.

For example, the 2 of cups is attributed to Venus in Cancer. If you place the Empress (Venus) on one side, and the Chariot (Cancer) on the other side, the cards become a mandala to better understand this relationship.

Further, if you place all pip cards corresponding to Venus around the Empress, you can get a sense of the personality of the same.

(...)

You can further connect the Empress card at her feet to the pips to see the relationship for each zodiac sign.

-Wimsaur.


I will, for the time being, express my gratitude, for your kindness and the work you have done - even including an illustration, an addition I would be inept to insert in a message.

When time and health* allows, I shall, however, explain why you have answered another question than the one I asked. Your answer will be useful for other purposes than the one I asked about (thank you for that!), and I am assured that it also will be useful for other readers than myself.

* Recent visual experiences of the realm of Mars immediately coincided with an infection and some other health issues, which re-inforces my former misgivings about Mars

Wimsaur

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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2016, 11:59:26 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;187849
I will, for the time being, express my gratitude, for your kindness and the work you have done - even including an illustration, an addition I would be inept to insert in a message.

When time and health* allows, I shall, however, explain why you have answered another question than the one I asked. Your answer will be useful for other purposes than the one I asked about (thank you for that!), and I am assured that it also will be useful for other readers than myself.

* Recent visual experiences of the realm of Mars immediately coincided with an infection and some other health issues, which re-inforces my former misgivings about Mars
Thank you for your kind words.

Mars is the only planet that is assigned 6 cards in this manner.
This is because 36/7=5 with a remainder of 1. Thus whichever planet starts will also finish.

The ordering of planets (according to Tarot) starts with Mars and continues in the order of the Tree of Life and/or hexagram. My theory on why it is that Mars starts the series is that it is the first sephirah to have motion (Saturn is abstract form, Jupiter being manifestation in a still state).



-Wimsaur.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2016, 10:03:00 am »
Quote from: Wimsaur;187801
Greetings,

There is an often overlooked book that I find very helpful for understanding the planets as they relate to the zodiac.

Tarot decks based in the hermetic tradition (Golden Dawn, Thoth, Liber T, Hermetic, Tarot of Ceremonial Magick, etc) include planetary and zodiacal attributes on all 36 pip cards (2s-10s), as well as the major arcana, and court cards.

For example, the 2 of cups is attributed to Venus in Cancer. If you place the Empress (Venus) on one side, and the Chariot (Cancer) on the other side, the cards become a mandala to better understand this relationship.

Further, if you place all pip cards corresponding to Venus around the Empress, you can get a sense of the personality of the same.

(...)

You can further connect the Empress card at her feet to the pips to see the relationship for each zodiac sign.

-Wimsaur.

As I said in my former reply, you have answered another question, than the one I asked. Do I find outward tools useful in order to reach altered states of consciousness? Yes, but the tarot only for intra-personal exploration: For transpersonal experiences, I need a Triangle of the Art and a couple of weeks for intense preparation. The latter is rather exhausting, and not undertaken willy nilly.

With the dangerous side-effects of exploration of Saturn and Mars in mind, I would prefer voluminous Traditional information about safety measures and careful methods of electional astrology, and that information is not achieved by tarot. My latest altered state of consciousness involving Mars coincided in time with worsened health problems.

In my initial message in this thread, I expressed my misgivings over the breach with Tradition in the 1890s. What you have chosen to call the hermetic tradition (which is a very fluid expression, which can refer to several things) is actually modern Occultism from UK in the 1890s (recognize that point in time?), afterwards influential in the former British colonies. The correspondences you tabulate were invented by William Wynn Westcott (or, more unlikely, S.L. MacGregor Mathers) for use within their oathbound esoteric order, Golden Dawn. The correspondences you mention has to do with planetary rulership over decans, 10-degree segements of the Zodiac.

Tarot was a latecomer to Traditional Western Esotericism, and when it was added to Tradition by Count De Mellet and Antoine de Gébelin in Le Monde primitif 1781, it was still not a part of a well-developed magical system. Divination with tarot (without any sophisticated magical correspondences) occurred in Bologna and Paris in the early 1750s, but it wasn't until 1783 Etteilla's Maniere de se recreer avec le jeu de cartes nommees tarots: pour servir de troisieme cahier a cet ouvrage was published, with supplements published in 1784 and 1786. Etteilla associated some of the trumps with the four elements and the twelve zodiacal signs. The suite of coins was associated with the planets and the nodes.

In the system of Etteilla, the card corresponding to Mars is Five of Coins.

The idea, to associate some tarot suite-cards with the decans, was hateched by Paul Christian in 1870, but he did use an older system than the British 1890s one. The suits consists of 14 cards each, in sum 56 cards. Since the decans are only 36, that means that 20 cards must be laid aside, but which ones?

In Christian's system, the correspondences looks like this:

Aries first decan: Queen of Wands
Aries second decan: 5 of Wands
Aries third decan: 5 of Swords

Taurus first decan: 6 of Swords
Taurus second decan: Knight of Wands
Taurus third decan: 6 of Wands

Gemini first decan: 7 of Wands
Gemini second decan: 7 of Swords
Gemini third decan: Page of Wands

Cancer first decan: 8 of Wands
Cancer second decan: Queen of Cups
Cancer third decan: 8 of Swords

Leo first decan: 9 of Swords
Leo second decan: 9 of Wands
Leo third decan: Knight of Cups

Virgo first decan: Page of Cups
Virgo second decan: 10 of Swords
Virgo third decan: 10 of Wands

Libra first decan: Deuce of Cups
Libra second decan: Queen of Swords
Libra third decan: Deuce of Coins

Scorpio first decan: 4 of Coins
Scorpio second decan: 4 of Cups
Scorpio third decan: Knight of Swords

Sagittarius first decan: Page of Swords
Sagittarius second decan: 5 of Coins
Sagittarius third decan: 5 of Cups

Capricorn first decan: 6 of Cups
Capricorn second decan: Queen of Coins
Capricorn third decan: 6 of Coins

Aquarius first decan: 8 of Coins
Aquarius second decan: 8 of Cups
Aquarius third decan: Knight of Coins

Pisces first decan: Page of Coins
Pisces second decan: 9 of Coins
Pisces third decan: 9 of Cups

In 1909 Gerard Encausse (the pseudonym Papus) presented the following system instead:

Aries first decan: 3 of Wands
Aries second decan: 4 of Wands
Aries third decan: 5 of Wands

Taurus first decan: 6 of Wands
Taurus second decan: 7 of Wands
Taurus third decan: 8 of Wands

Gemini first decan: 9 of Wands
Gemini second decan: Ace of Cups
Gemini third decan: Deuce of Cups

Cancer first decan: 3 of Cups
Cancer second decan: 4 of Cups
Cancer third decan: 5 of Cups

Leo first decan: 6 of Cups
Leo second decan: 7 of Cups
Leo third decan: 8 of Cups

Virgo first decan: 9 of Cups
Virgo second decan: Ace of Swords
Virgo third decan: Deuce of Swords

Libra first decan: 3 of Swords
Libra second decan: 4 of Swords
Libra third decan: 5 of Swords

Scorpio first decan: 6 of Swords
Scorpio second decan: 7 of Swords
Scorpio third decan: 8 of Swords

Sagittarius first decan: 9 of Swords
Sagittarius second decan: Ace of Coins
Sagittarius third decan: Deuce of Coins

Capricorn first decan: 3 of Coins
Capricorn second decan: 4 of Coins
Capricorn third decan: 5 of Coins

Aquarius first decan: 6 of Coins
Aquarius second decan: 7 of Coins
Aquarius third decan: 8 of Coins

Pisces first decan: 9 of Coins
Pisces second decan: Ace of Wands
Pisces third decan: Deuce of Wands

We now have three systems to chose between, of decans corresponding to tarot cards, but it doesn't end here: In the last 15 years, or so, Aaron Leitch and Christine Payne-Towler have suggested one system of their own, each, which leaves us with five different correspondence systems to chose between: A smorgasboard of choices. Of these five, only one was intended to be oathbound - the one you suggested. I know that Israel Regardie's decision to publish large parts of the GD system in the 1940s has left it out in the open, but I am of the firm conviction that it is risky to meddle with somebody elses egregore. Even those who are members of GD-derived orders often suffer from their egregore. The GD egregore has a reputation of causing conflicts among its members. The publicly visible adherents of the GD-system do not give the impression to be any bodhisattvas, as it were. Since I am, technically, not allowed to use the GD magical system, I leave it alone. Agrippa, Christian, Papus and the grimoires are at least open-source.

The problem of chosing a useful correspondence system do not even end here. Even if anyone choose one of the five systems under consideration, the planetary rulership of any particular decan is not a matter of consensus. Besides the so called 'Chaldaean' attributation of planets to decans, used by Paul Christian and WW Westcott alike, there also exist another one based on triplicities. This gives us TEN different systems of correspondences to chose between.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 10:08:36 am by RecycledBenedict »

Wimsaur

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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2016, 06:23:19 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;187988
The problem of chosing a useful correspondence system do not even end here. Even if anyone choose one of the five systems under consideration, the planetary rulership of any particular decan is not a matter of consensus. Besides the so called 'Chaldaean' attributation of planets to decans, used by Paul Christian and WW Westcott alike, there also exist another one based on triplicities. This gives us TEN different systems of correspondences to chose between.

My suggestion is not to rely on consensus but to rely on meditation and contemplation to choose which set best speaks to the practitioner.

The GD system is the most in line with my background and understanding of the elements.

Of course, I have been a long time Qabalist, so rely on the Tree of Life to teach me the intricacies of its system. I recognize that to the inexperienced, meditation and contemplation alone are no substitute for a teacher.

-Wimsaur.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2016, 11:02:15 am »
Quote from: Wimsaur;188011
My suggestion is not to rely on consensus but to rely on meditation and contemplation to choose which set best speaks to the practitioner.

The GD system is the most in line with my background and understanding of the elements.

Of course, I have been a long time Qabalist, so rely on the Tree of Life to teach me the intricacies of its system. I recognize that to the inexperienced, meditation and contemplation alone are no substitute for a teacher.

-Wimsaur.


Yes, of course, but you have to keep in mind that ALL the ten systems I mentioned are Qabalist in the Neo-Hermetic sense of the word. The British branch of it is not the only one.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Traditional planetary
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2016, 01:30:25 pm »
Quote from: Wimsaur;188011
My suggestion is not to rely on consensus but to rely on meditation and contemplation to choose which set best speaks to the practitioner.

The GD system is the most in line with my background and understanding of the elements.

Of course, I have been a long time Qabalist, so rely on the Tree of Life to teach me the intricacies of its system. I recognize that to the inexperienced, meditation and contemplation alone are no substitute for a teacher.

-Wimsaur.

Those of us who rely on Sefer Yetzirah paint a deck of 22 cards with the Hebrew letters, but no distracting illustrations, and meditate on what the letters correspond to, in the following fashion:

Alef: Air
Bet: Saturn or Moon
Gimel: Jupiter or Mars
Dalet: Mars or Sun
He: Aries
Waw: Taurus
Zajin: Gemini
Chet: Cancer
Tet: Leo
Yod: Virgo
Kaf: Sun or Venus
Lamed: Libra
Mem: Water
Nun: Scorpio
Samek: Sagittarius
Ajin: Capricorn
Pe: Venus or Mercury
Tzade: Aquarius
Qof: Pisces
Resh: Mercury or Saturn
Shin: Fire
Taw: Moon or Jupiter
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 01:30:56 pm by RecycledBenedict »

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