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Author Topic: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism  (Read 9072 times)

Jenett

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2014, 05:48:01 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;155986
Food is LIFE.  it's not hard to come up with similar concepts for that.

Seriously - you DON'T know your history if you're saying this stuff.  That's like saying a star can have /only one meaning/ and everything else stole from it.  As opposed to /look up and see stars/.

You're seeing a star and claiming it's stolen.  Look up.

 
It seems time to trot out the essay I put together a couple of variants of this ago about Holidays, Calendars, and whether anyone stole anything from anyone.

http://gleewood.org/seeking/broader-questions/holidays-history-and-calendars/

(Shad, I love your phrasing there.)
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carillion

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2014, 06:09:16 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;155986
Food is LIFE.  it's not hard to come up with similar concepts for that.

Seriously - you DON'T know your history if you're saying this stuff.  That's like saying a star can have /only one meaning/ and everything else stole from it.  As opposed to /look up and see stars/.

You're seeing a star and claiming it's stolen.  Look up.


It's traditional to eat hot dogs at baseball games in the U.S., ergo, the hot dog is traditionally American....

Not really:)

You are quite right, human history is the story of trade, emulation, acquisition and the merging of cultures. No real cause to use the word 'steal'. Empires came and empires went but always, somethings were left over and kept in the prevailing culture as necessary improvements or just fun things to have/make/use.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2015, 06:23:50 pm »
Quote from: dionysiandame;37153
I really couldn't think of another way to name this thread as the ideas I'm attempting to convey aren't full formulated enough in my mind. I will try my best to ask this question in a way that a) doesn't make me look like a complete numbskull and b) conveys my ignorance in as charming a way as possible.

For the past year I have been studying the Golden Dawn tradition of ceremonial magic. First, through the coursework offered by the Ordo Stella Matutina and finally on my own with the help of a couple of online groups. My main issue with the system is the Judeo-Christian symbolism and archetypes. As someone who isn't Christian and who has no connection whatsoever with the entities in question; I not only felt uncomfortable vibrating the words of power, but I felt slightly blasphemous as well.

Sure, that's my problem, but it formed a blockage in my ability to maintain due focus on the work.

I am currently considering joining the O.T.O lodge in my area; which would give me the kind of structure I need while also allowing me to learn from others. But my main question is; can I take the ceremonial components I've found useful and "break them" out of the Judeo-Christian framework?

In doing so does that break the ritual?  Maybe break isn't the right word but it's the best word I can think of.

I don't think it is a good idea to break out minor details from an entire system and replace them with something else. Different parts of the GD system are interrelated to each other, and the replacement will affect not just one single ritual, but the integrity of an entire system. I believe it is more wise, to build a consistent system from the ground up. Have you read this article on the AODA website?

http://aoda.org/Articles/The_Sphere_of_Protection.html
« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 06:25:30 pm by RecycledBenedict »

hraefngar

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2017, 06:10:14 pm »
Quote from: dionysiandame;37153
But my main question is; can I take the ceremonial components I've found useful and "break them" out of the Judeo-Christian framework?

 
The JCI imagery is the main reason I never joined a Ceremonial Magick lodge. Like you, my aversion to that sort of thing would prevent me from being successful.  As far as being "blasphemous" however I can tell you I know a  fair number of pagans, particularly in the Greco-Roman sphere, who are or were Ceremonial Mages.  

When I got into Heathenry /Norse paganism, I adopted the LBRP and the Middle Pillar ritual, stripping it of the JCI imagery and supplanting it with runes and Norse cosmology. For what I was trying to do, it did work.  

I am now a member of the Rune Gild, an occult organization that takes the basic methods of the western occult and ties it to Runes and a Norse cosmology.  

So, yes, I think you can take the basics of CM and adapt it.

Beryl

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2017, 03:03:30 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;155983
True, it came out of Judaism but Judaism and even Islam came from early, tribal, pagan societies. They stole from them too. So yes in a sense Christians did steal from pagans. I even read about the inspiration behind the Islamic god, Allah in the early Arabian empires. But yes I have read about the history of Christmas and even Easter and where they started. That said I don't really know much about Hannukah and Passover, but I know a lot of stuff that American people have been told is part of their Christian faith and cannon is actually stolen ancient holidays praising other deities, and religious symbols from ancient faiths, etc. Even the communion ritual is similar to many feeding rituals in neopaganism. Yes I do know my history.

Okay 1: you can't steal from yourself. Judaism didn't 'steal' from the pagan culture it grew out of, it may have adapted some stuff because *that is how cultures evolve* (this is basically like saying 21st Century technology 'stole' from 20th Century technology because in the 21st Century you have mobile phones that can show TV shows, and in the 20th Century you had both TV shows and mobile phones...) Judaism no more stole from pre-Judaism than Rabbinic Judaism stole from Temple-era Judaism. ("You can't steal from yourself" also applies to much of the alleged "theft" of pre-Christian pagan practices in northern Europe, given if that *did* happen (see 3) in many, if not most, cases it was more "okay, we're Christians now, but we're going to still do XYZ, okay?" Well, this almost certainly happened even if the practices they carried forward *don't* still survive, of course, because mostly if a large group of people whose culture and religion are pretty much intertwined, joins a new religion, it's likely they'll not change their entire culture just because they've got a new god...)

2: A significant amount of early Jewish practices (avoidance of certain foods, avoidance of certain sexual activities etc) are very likely pretty much the opposite of this anyway - they probably arose from a desire to be NOT like the (polytheistic/pagan/however you want to describe them) neighbours, to be distinct and separate, culturally, in order to reinforce the religious difference.

3. A lot of things that are believed to be 'surviving elements of pagan holidays' are quite likely actually just folk traditions that probably are younger than Christianity in the relevant part of the world.

4. Communion is, afaict, based on Kiddush which, again, is a Jewish thing - Jesus was essentially taking the Jewish tradition of sharing bread and wine on Shabbat and other holidays (the Last Supper was a Passover seder, so it would have been unleavened bread) and adding a new meaning to it for his followers. (Assuming that we take the story of the Last Supper as having literally happened, etc.)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 03:06:37 pm by Beryl »

drgong

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2018, 11:10:34 pm »
For the past year I have been studying the Golden Dawn tradition of ceremonial magic. First, through the coursework offered by the Ordo Stella Matutina and finally on my own with the help of a couple of online groups. My main issue with the system is the Judeo-Christian symbolism and archetypes. As someone who isn't Christian and who has no connection whatsoever with the entities in question; I not only felt uncomfortable vibrating the words of power, but I felt slightly blasphemous as well.

You can try Modern Magick by Donald Michael Kraig - which is a very good book BTW that is much more a functional handbook then say, The Golden Dawn.   However to do more would break a lot of the concepts of the golden dawn style system.

Just my .02 cents.

Zlote Jablko

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2018, 07:48:04 pm »

 
Christianity evolved out of Judaism. It was originally a Jewish sect. It did not steal from Judaism. And it evolved out of earlier forms of Judaism. I'm also pretty sure Modern Judaism is also different in ways from the form that Christianity evolved from due to time and the fact that there was a Diaspora.

Religions and cultures evolve and change. That does not mean they stole it from earlier periods.

Hellenistic Judaism, to be precise. Christianity evolved out of a very Hellenized form of Judaism. At a minimum, it was influenced by Greek Philosophy. It was also likely modeled after mystery religions, which Hellenized Jews claimed were inspired by Moses (Some like Philo claimed the Orphic mysteries originated with Moses, whom he identified with “Musaeus” due to the similarities in names.) There was a real drive to harmonize Jewish and Hellenic “wisdom” into one system.

If the creator of this thread studies the links between Christianity, Greek philosophy, Gnosticism, and Orphism, I suspect they may feel less uncomfortable with the blending of esotericism with Judeo-Christian imagery. In some ways, it’s a natural combination.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 07:51:47 pm by Zlote Jablko »

EnderDragonFire

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2018, 12:35:47 am »
I am currently considering joining the O.T.O lodge in my area; which would give me the kind of structure I need while also allowing me to learn from others. But my main question is; can I take the ceremonial components I've found useful and "break them" out of the Judeo-Christian framework?

This is merely my opinion, but I don't like the idea of trying to strip powers out of a ritual, and substituting them with other powers. Again, this is 100% me, and not an authoritative position, but it feels:

A) Very appropriative.

B) Likely to offend all parties involved, including the powers you are removing and the ones you are putting in their place. Nobody likes it when someone misidentified or misrecognizes them, and to me this seems likely to happen when you go taking spells, incantations, and other things that are designed for one specific being and applying them to another being who is used to different treatment. It's kinda like calling an unmarried woman Mrs. or getting two people's names mixed up.

"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

EnderDragonFire

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2018, 12:38:09 am »
This is merely my opinion

I didn't read the date on the OP. Oops. My mistake.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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