Lesser Magic & LIES

[Jack]

It doesn't mean that the Queen Mum and Obama are shapeshifting reptile witch-aliens, just because it all makes too much sense not to be true!!!!!

No, obviously. Everybody knows it's the Bush family that are reptile overlords from the 4th dimension. Everybody is so disappointed in Sad Grandpa Jeb! right now.

[Jack]

I believe that words, thoughts, and intentions hold power. So, to that extent, they are all magical acts. This morning my husband said that not all spells have incantations, and I replied that most don't. Simply thinking about harming someone is directing intention; adding words intensifies that.

So honesty hour time: how do you as a person who presumably doesn't deal with intrusive thoughts live with the idea that any stray thought you have is a magical force you're putting out into the world and therefore you're completely responsible for the impact of literally every random thought that passes through your head? I'm incredibly curious how sane people live with this idea.

At the very least, when you are lyin you are not being true to your authentic self, which doesn't feel great.

Of course, other things that don't feel great include getting fired, so it's a tightrope walk. XD

[Darkhawk]

At the very least, when you are lyin you are not being true to your authentic self, which doesn't feel great.

 
I just have to pull out this sentence because there's an obvious response involved.  That being:

"Loki Lie-Smith."

[Jack]

I just have to pull out this sentence because there's an obvious response involved.  That being:

"Loki Lie-Smith."

Well if you're gonna put a fine point on it...  XD

I have hoarded my truths as a precious thing since I was a child. Honestly got me scolded because I was saying fantastic things, or because I was arguing with the Sunday School teacher, or because the boys who started the fight were more popular than me.

Honesty is a luxury I've rarely had and always treasured with the people who were safe to share it with. Trans people are derided as dishonest for not sharing the status of their genitals soon enough after meeting someone, and so I distrust people who demand my honesty as if it's something they will respect out of hand, because 99 times out of a hundred, they will toss it aside in favor of a narrative they prefer and criticize me anyway.

[unveiledartist]

Higher (largely ceremonial) Magic is wonderful, yes, & has its place, yes, but, to my thinking, Lesser Magic - often called "Lower Magic" - is more important, at least in one's daily life.
Now, how adult are we? Adult enough to admit that we can hardly get through a day, let alone a life-time, w/o telling lies?
Oh, my, I've upset so many, I know. All those who believe in Never Land, where it is possible to work hard & be good & tell the truth & have all come right each & every time - no matter what Boogie Man the Wide Wicked World tosses up against Little Old You, all by your lonesome, w/no one to help. Oh, my - & lions & tigers & bears, too!

Enough sarcasm! I'm just tired of talking to people who swear that they never, ever tell a lie - just moments before I overhear them tell a string of "white lies". Well, a lie is LIE. It is a statement that is NOT true, regardless of its color - & we ALL tell them. Every day.

And telling them is a part of Lesser Magic - telling them is a magical act.

Does anyone agree?

Nearly everyone disagrees, I know.

Does anyone care to answer?

 
Clarification. How does lesser magic and its importance relate to lying?

I dont understand what you are saying with both completely different topics.

[DIASPORA-1963]

Are we drawing a direct line between "aestheticly pleasing" and "useful magical tech" or did you have more in mind than that?

 
Well, I believe that the Mass is literally magic for the masses - it is spectacle - or it was before that great jackass John 23 stopped having the mass chanted in Latin. That Dope's idea was to bring the Church to the people, but his result was to soil the Church. When the priest stood in a locked cage, w/his back to the congregation, chanting in Latin, while thick clouds of incense filled the air, the aisles were full - now that the priest faces the congregation, speaks in the plain old vernacular, and is obviously an ordinary person, well, only old ladies show up for the early mass. Few churches even bother with the High Mass any more. You've got to go to a cathedral to see a bishop, performing the Miracle to get more than one altar boy, who isn't wearing sneakers with his vestaments (!).
Spectacle IS magic. Hitler understood that - or at least Goebbels did. The late David Bowie understood it. I understand it. Don't you dress magically. Do you leave your home out of costume? Do you dare ever put on clothes that are not in perfect keeping w/your current magical intentions?
EVERYTHING matters because someone, somewhere will notice even the tiniest detail, no matter that most people notice nothing. And those two facts are of great magical importance!

[Castus]

Well, I believe that the Mass is literally magic for the masses - it is spectacle - or it was before that great jackass John 23 stopped having the mass chanted in Latin. That Dope's idea was to bring the Church to the people, but his result was to soil the Church. When the priest stood in a locked cage, w/his back to the congregation, chanting in Latin, while thick clouds of incense filled the air, the aisles were full - now that the priest faces the congregation, speaks in the plain old vernacular, and is obviously an ordinary person, well, only old ladies show up for the early mass. Few churches even bother with the High Mass any more. You've got to go to a cathedral to see a bishop, performing the Miracle to get more than one altar boy, who isn't wearing sneakers with his vestaments (!).
Spectacle IS magic. Hitler understood that - or at least Goebbels did. The late David Bowie understood it. I understand it. Don't you dress magically. Do you leave your home out of costume? Do you dare ever put on clothes that are not in perfect keeping w/your current magical intentions?
EVERYTHING matters because someone, somewhere will notice even the tiniest detail, no matter that most people notice nothing. And those two facts are of great magical importance!

 
This is one of the most bizarre things I've read in a good long while.

[Sarah]

Do you dare ever put on clothes that are not in perfect keeping w/your current magical intentions?
EVERYTHING matters because someone, somewhere will notice even the tiniest detail, no matter that most people notice nothing. And those two facts are of great magical importance!

 
I don't really understand this, my clothes very rarely have anything to do with magical intent, all that matters to me is that they are comfortable, halfway presentable, and I feel good in them

[Faemon]

I meant "lie" in its conventional, pedestrian sense …

I hold that all deliberate acts are magical in nature. The human being is not the only animal who does things deliberately, but the human being is the animal whose acts are the most elaborately deliberate. I hold that magic is – ultimately – a refinement of deliberate action via deliberate intent because the root (ACE) of all action is intention.

A lie – based on its quality & degree of intention – would, by my reasoning, be magical in nature.

But the "conventional, pedestrian" sense of a lie is one that I consider the opposite of deliberate. Words may carry meaning, but a lot of the white lies are white noise. They kind of null the magic.

Pop quiz:

Hey, it's my favorite person! How're you doing?

A.) Fine, thanks for asking. And how are you?
B.) I overheard you telling everyone at the office that I'm unprofessional and incompetent. If I really am your "favorite person" then how do you gossip about people you hate? Was that sarcasm or...?
C.) I'm not doing too good. Someone broke into my apartment, stole my computer, and left a territorial goose in its place.

Let's say that A is the lie, while B and C are the truths. To answer C should elicit empathy and aid, or at least a chaote's banishing. To answer B would bring about a confrontation that changes the relationship. I'd consider both to be magical for the effect, not the intent.

Because most of the time, I would have answered A, and that lying lie of an answer would be so lacking in deliberation that I should rewind my memory to check if I answered the person at all (or if I should be extra nice to them later that day because I might have come off as having silently snubbed them instead of saying, "I'm fine.")

Even if it were deliberate, answering that I'm fine won't make the goose vanish in a puff of positivity, won't save my career, and won't make me fine.

If, by your experience, the usual options for lying are:

D.) I'm great! A headhunter made an offer too good to turn down. (A~haa, that'll show you "unprofessional and incompetent" for about 0.2 seconds before this web of lies unravels and leaves me without references on the resume.)
E.) I'm terrible, I got back from the doctor's office and will need to take some time off...it's Munchausen's. Stage 5. (A~haa, that'll show them what a jerk you are, to say that someone dying of illness is "unprofessional and incompetent"! Even though I'm not actually dying.)
F.) So great! Someone special in my life proposed to me. (A~haa that'll show...someone...something...Damn it, but I don't even have a ring to show off...)

I must assure you those options are neither conventional nor pedestrian. :confused: Whoever lies like that Should Get Help.

[DIASPORA-1963]

This is one of the most bizarre things I've read in a good long while.

 Thank you. Please elaborate.

[Jack]

Thank you. Please elaborate.

For reference, Castus is the person on the board most likely to agree with you when you slag on Vatican II.

[DIASPORA-1963]

But the "conventional, pedestrian" sense of a lie is one that I consider the opposite of deliberate. Words may carry meaning, but a lot of the white lies are white noise. They kind of null the magic.

That is quite T.

Pop quiz:

Hey, it's my favorite person! How're you doing?

A.) Fine, thanks for asking. And how are you?
B.) I overheard you telling everyone at the office that I'm unprofessional and incompetent. If I really am your "favorite person" then how do you gossip about people you hate? Was that sarcasm or...?
C.) I'm not doing too good. Someone broke into my apartment, stole my computer, and left a territorial goose in its place.

Let's say that A is the lie, while B and C are the truths. To answer C should elicit empathy and aid, or at least a chaote's banishing. To answer B would bring about a confrontation that changes the relationship. I'd consider both to be magical for the effect, not the intent.

Because most of the time, I would have answered A, and that lying lie of an answer would be so lacking in deliberation that I should rewind my memory to check if I answered the person at all (or if I should be extra nice to them later that day because I might have come off as having silently snubbed them instead of saying, "I'm fine.")

Even if it were deliberate, answering that I'm fine won't make the goose vanish in a puff of positivity, won't save my career, and won't make me fine.

If, by your experience, the usual options for lying are:

D.) I'm great! A headhunter made an offer too good to turn down. (A~haa, that'll show you "unprofessional and incompetent" for about 0.2 seconds before this web of lies unravels and leaves me without references on the resume.)
E.) I'm terrible, I got back from the doctor's office and will need to take some time off...it's Munchausen's. Stage 5. (A~haa, that'll show them what a jerk you are, to say that someone dying of illness is "unprofessional and incompetent"! Even though I'm not actually dying.)
F.) So great! Someone special in my life proposed to me. (A~haa that'll show...someone...something...Damn it, but I don't even have a ring to show off...)

I must assure you those options are neither conventional nor pedestrian. :confused: Whoever lies like that Should Get Help.

By "conventional sense", I meant the official line, that "one should not tell lies ever" - rather than the T - that one winds up telling lies strategically, all day, every day - & that hardly anyone will admit this, for fear of two things - (1) being thought a bad little boy or girl & (2) having Society fall to pieces. No, we must all seem paragons of T telling b/c everyone wants to live in a World that he/she can trust - but to quote Rex Harrison as Julius Caesar in the movie Cleopatra, "Trust is a word that has always made me apprehensive".

[DIASPORA-1963]

I don't really understand this, my clothes very rarely have anything to do with magical intent, all that matters to me is that they are comfortable, halfway presentable, and I feel good in them

 
Did you ever put on a nice, new suit & tie for a job interview? It did not matter how uncomfortable you were, you wanted that job. Men put on tuxedos to get married. In England & other Commonwealth countries, men & women barristers put on wigs to appear in court. School masters used to wear mortar boards; in some old-fashioned schools some might still, I do not know. To be a mathematician, I made sure that I looked like one - ill-fitting sports jacket, shirt w/collar unbuttoned, ugly tie askew, trousers not pressed, shoes a bit scuffed, a pipe in my hand - bald, bearded, pocket-protector filled w/pens & pencils:  on campus, I was treated like a professor long before I had even graduated.

[Jack]

Did you ever put on a nice, new suit & tie for a job interview? It did not matter how uncomfortable you were, you wanted that job. Men put on tuxedos to get married. In England & other Commonwealth countries, men & women barristers put on wigs to appear in court. School masters used to wear mortar boards; in some old-fashioned schools some might still, I do not know. To be a mathematician, I made sure that I looked like one - ill-fitting sports jacket, shirt w/collar unbuttoned, ugly tie askew, trousers not pressed, shoes a bit scuffed, a pipe in my hand - bald, bearded, pocket-protector filled w/pens & pencils:  on campus, I was treated like a professor long before I had even graduated.

There's a bit of a leap of scale between "do you ever dare dress without the utmost intention" and dressing up for the occasional job interview or marriage ceremony.

I mean honestly getting dressed is an exercise in perception and shapeshifting for me literally every day but the way you're making this argument doesn't make me want to agree with you. You're coming across as bombastic and lecturing - perhaps this is also part of your mathemagical persona?

[Emma Eldritch]

Well, how about accumulating a high-standing pile of those "low" acts? They could make a pretty nifty stack, couldn't they? Billionaires have done it, I'm sure. 100 million pennies make 1 million dollars, you know ... I'm a mathematician - I nitpick sometimes - the grandest things are often in those nits & those picks! I can't help but take a look.

People lie - & that doesn't bother me. I expect it from them. "Oh, I never lie" bothers me. It's like saying, I never take a crap - which means that you do but you don't wipe when you're done.

 
Nitpick all you want, but none of that seems particularly impressive to me. Maybe I just demand more of my magic than "doing everyday shit."