collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Lesser Magic & LIES  (Read 10018 times)

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10217
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 271
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2016, 08:42:17 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187611
Truth is to be defined as that which is either self-evident (for instance, the Earth circles the Sun), that which is (nearly) universally accepted (for instance, the Gregorian calendar year 2016), or that which has been proven by empirical evidence (for instance, gravity); truth will also include such items that can be established via sufficient documentary evidence (ie, evidence in keeping w/academic standards).
Falsity is any assertion that cannot meet at least one of the preceding qualifications.

What you call "truth" here I'd call "demonstrated fact". Your definition of "falsity" seems to be anything that is not a "demonstrated truth" -- which may include things which are factual but cannot (yet in some cases?) be "demonstrated". Those seem to be strange definitions of "truth" and "falsity" from a philosophy/logic POV -- at least to my mind.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

DIASPORA-1963

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 245
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #91 on: March 06, 2016, 10:39:42 am »
Quote from: RandallS;187654
What you call "truth" here I'd call "demonstrated fact". Your definition of "falsity" seems to be anything that is not a "demonstrated truth" -- which may include things which are factual but cannot (yet in some cases?) be "demonstrated". Those seem to be strange definitions of "truth" and "falsity" from a philosophy/logic POV -- at least to my mind.

 
Correct. But - as stated elsewhere in the thread - we are creating a particular paradigm. The rules of creating paradigms allow us to set out definitions that might not accord squarely w/the usually accepted definitions of this or that word/phrase/concept - so long as we make clear that we are doing so. Let us call this "Experimental Paradigm # 1 Between D & F" - & you are welcome to join, if you would like ...

Actually, I, for one, believe that no human can claim to KNOW the TRUTH. Facts are all that humans can, truly, assert. We are capable of being honest - but not capable of telling the TRUTH, except by accident - &, even then, we only ever tell a tiny piece of the whole T. The "whole T & nothing but the T" is well beyond anyone's grasp.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

DIASPORA-1963

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 245
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #92 on: March 06, 2016, 10:18:35 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187657
Correct. But - as stated elsewhere in the thread - we are creating a particular paradigm. The rules of creating paradigms allow us to set out definitions that might not accord squarely w/the usually accepted definitions of this or that word/phrase/concept - so long as we make clear that we are doing so. Let us call this "Experimental Paradigm # 1 Between D & F" - & you are welcome to join, if you would like ...

Actually, I, for one, believe that no human can claim to KNOW the TRUTH. Facts are all that humans can, truly, assert. We are capable of being honest - but not capable of telling the TRUTH, except by accident - &, even then, we only ever tell a tiny piece of the whole T. The "whole T & nothing but the T" is well beyond anyone's grasp.

 
I hope that I can make this a bit less confusing to others reading this thread by setting up a more traditional paradigm.

Let "Truth" be represented by the symbol "T".
Let T = the agreed-upon Axioms set forward in this exercise.
Let "Falsity" be represented by the symbol "F".
Let F = not-T.

There, I think that that is a better, clearer beginner. What do you think? Of course, work must be done. But it's a start.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10217
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 271
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #93 on: March 06, 2016, 10:53:24 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187708
Let "Truth" be represented by the symbol "T".
Let T = the agreed-upon Axioms set forward in this exercise.
Let "Falsity" be represented by the symbol "F".
Let F = not-T.

I'm still confused. You have defined T (truth) as the Axioms (those things simply defined as correct/true). You've defined F (Falsity) as everything that is NOT an axiom. You've covered everything that is or can be imagined right there as either T or F so there is literally nowhere to go from there. Everything is either included in agreed upon axioms ("truth") or it is something else and by your definition above "falsity".
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

DIASPORA-1963

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 245
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #94 on: March 06, 2016, 11:59:31 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;187709
I'm still confused. You have defined T (truth) as the Axioms (those things simply defined as correct/true). You've defined F (Falsity) as everything that is NOT an axiom. You've covered everything that is or can be imagined right there as either T or F so there is literally nowhere to go from there. Everything is either included in agreed upon axioms ("truth") or it is something else and by your definition above "falsity".

Well, we have not yet agreed upon the axioms, so I have simply stated that T will = the axioms once we have agreed upon them.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10217
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 271
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #95 on: March 07, 2016, 10:26:17 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187712
Well, we have not yet agreed upon the axioms, so I have simply stated that T will = the axioms once we have agreed upon them.

The problem I see with your system as defined is that the axioms are the ENTIRE system. Truth is the axioms, falsity is everything else. Since axioms are accepted without evidence or proof, your are basing defining a system that says "truth is what I (or we) say it is". Framing it up in logical form doesn't change this.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

DIASPORA-1963

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 245
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #96 on: March 07, 2016, 10:54:28 am »
Quote from: RandallS;187729
The problem I see with your system as defined is that the axioms are the ENTIRE system. Truth is the axioms, falsity is everything else. Since axioms are accepted without evidence or proof, your are basing defining a system that says "truth is what I (or we) say it is". Framing it up in logical form doesn't change this.
Well, you could be right - we've not got past the axiomatization of the system yet!
Let's wait a bit to see if we can axiomatize it satisfactorily before we torpedo it. There's no harm done: in the end, we are playing, you know. The Fate of the Universe is hardly hanging in the balance, & I do so love to play!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 10:57:52 am by DIASPORA-1963 »
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #97 on: March 07, 2016, 12:07:12 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187653
Well, the calendar is arbitrary - so, in a sense, it cannot be false. It is a mere convention - unless, of course, you are asserting some sort of an Hermetical T.
Again - the academic standards are arbitrary; however, they have the advantage of being uniform & can, thus, be applied universally.
Even so, Euclid managed w/a mere 6 self-evident axioms.


The premise remains faulty. If something arbitrary cannot be false, then F is arbitrarily also T and T can arbitrarily be F.
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

DIASPORA-1963

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 245
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #98 on: March 07, 2016, 01:13:22 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;187736
The premise remains faulty. If something arbitrary cannot be false, then F is arbitrarily also T and T can arbitrarily be F.

Well, since this is a unique paradigm, I am willing to yield.What, then, would you say is our axiomatic definition of T?
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #99 on: March 07, 2016, 01:35:15 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187737
Well, since this is a unique paradigm, I am willing to yield.What, then, would you say is our axiomatic definition of T?

Let T be self-evident truth.
Let P be perception.
Let W1 be physical phenomena in the World.
Let W2 be cultural phenomena in the World.
Let E be expression.

If the equation doesn't balance to T, then that would be not-T. However, if all F is lie then not-T does not equal F because an honest mistake or dissenting opinion (P to E, not to W) is different from a lie even if it doesn't equal W. All lies may be false, but falsity doesn't equal lie. By the same rule, Honesty does not equal T.

Let A be agency.
Let - value of A be deliberate harmful lies.
Let + value of A be harmless lies that are not deliberate.
A cannot equal 0, unless we propose either intent or effect as neutral.

Does that come off as a better set? (Sorry, wanting for superscripts.)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 01:36:33 pm by Faemon »
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

DIASPORA-1963

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 245
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #100 on: March 08, 2016, 12:01:06 am »
Quote from: Faemon;187740
Let T be self-evident truth.
Let P be perception.
Let W1 be physical phenomena in the World.
Let W2 be cultural phenomena in the World.
Let E be expression.

If the equation doesn't balance to T, then that would be not-T. However, if all F is lie not to W) is different from a lie even if it doesn't equal W. All lies may be false, but then not-T does not equal F because an honest mistake or dissenting opinion (P to E,  falsity doesn't equal lie. By the same rule, Honesty does not equal T.

Let A be agency.
Let - value of A be deliberate harmful lies.
Let + value of A be harmless lies that are not deliberate.
A cannot equal 0, unless we propose either intent or effect as neutral.

Does that come off as a better set? (Sorry, wanting for superscripts.)

 
Let A = "agency" (to be defined)
Let -A = the value of "deliberate, harmful lies" (to be defined)
Let +A = the value of "not-deliberate, harmless lies" (to be defined)
Let E = "expression" (to be defined)
Let P = "perception" (to be defined)
Let W*1 = "physical phenomena in the World" (to be defined)
Let W*2 = "cultural phenomena in the World" (to be defined)

A fuller set of variables, still in need of work.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
OMNIA DEPENDET!

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
833 Views
Last post January 13, 2013, 10:08:32 pm
by RandallS
5 Replies
2600 Views
Last post January 26, 2014, 08:20:57 am
by luc798
0 Replies
1598 Views
Last post January 15, 2016, 07:44:50 am
by RecycledBenedict
64 Replies
3398 Views
Last post March 28, 2016, 09:46:52 pm
by DIASPORA-1963
3 Replies
1566 Views
Last post April 07, 2016, 01:23:20 pm
by Jenett

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 46
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall