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Author Topic: Lesser Magic & LIES  (Read 9981 times)

DIASPORA-1963

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Lesser Magic & LIES
« on: February 28, 2016, 11:20:32 pm »
Higher (largely ceremonial) Magic is wonderful, yes, & has its place, yes, but, to my thinking, Lesser Magic - often called "Lower Magic" - is more important, at least in one's daily life.
Now, how adult are we? Adult enough to admit that we can hardly get through a day, let alone a life-time, w/o telling lies?
Oh, my, I've upset so many, I know. All those who believe in Never Land, where it is possible to work hard & be good & tell the truth & have all come right each & every time - no matter what Boogie Man the Wide Wicked World tosses up against Little Old You, all by your lonesome, w/no one to help. Oh, my - & lions & tigers & bears, too!

Enough sarcasm! I'm just tired of talking to people who swear that they never, ever tell a lie - just moments before I overhear them tell a string of "white lies". Well, a lie is LIE. It is a statement that is NOT true, regardless of its color - & we ALL tell them. Every day.

And telling them is a part of Lesser Magic - telling them is a magical act.

Does anyone agree?

Nearly everyone disagrees, I know.

Does anyone care to answer?
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Jack

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2016, 11:46:36 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187333
And telling them is a part of Lesser Magic - telling them is a magical act.

Does anyone agree?

Nearly everyone disagrees, I know.

Does anyone care to answer?

 
I lie all the time - I work in customer service. I'm happy to help you find that, and no, I don't mind staying open while you finish shopping, and it's definitely no trouble.

I don't consider it any more magical an act than any other act of will I do during the day, though. So on some level, I guess it's true, but in practice, no, I don't agree. I'd be interested in hearing the theory behind why you consider it worth singling out as a magical act, though.
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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2016, 01:04:30 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187333
Higher (largely ceremonial) Magic is wonderful, yes, & has its place, yes, but, to my thinking, Lesser Magic - often called "Lower Magic" - is more important, at least in one's daily life.
Now, how adult are we? Adult enough to admit that we can hardly get through a day, let alone a life-time, w/o telling lies?
Oh, my, I've upset so many, I know. All those who believe in Never Land, where it is possible to work hard & be good & tell the truth & have all come right each & every time - no matter what Boogie Man the Wide Wicked World tosses up against Little Old You, all by your lonesome, w/no one to help. Oh, my - & lions & tigers & bears, too!

Enough sarcasm! I'm just tired of talking to people who swear that they never, ever tell a lie - just moments before I overhear them tell a string of "white lies". Well, a lie is LIE. It is a statement that is NOT true, regardless of its color - & we ALL tell them. Every day.

And telling them is a part of Lesser Magic - telling them is a magical act.

Does anyone agree?

Nearly everyone disagrees, I know.

Does anyone care to answer?

 
Of course people lie. Like Jack said, just ask anybody in customer service. But I do not follow your logic about how that's even remotely magical. I mean, I guess you're sort of bending reality provided nobody calls you on your bullshit? But that seems like setting the magical bar really low.

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2016, 01:18:15 am »
Quote from: Jack;187334
I lie all the time - I work in customer service. I'm happy to help you find that, and no, I don't mind staying open while you finish shopping, and it's definitely no trouble.

I don't consider it any more magical an act than any other act of will I do during the day, though. So on some level, I guess it's true, but in practice, no, I don't agree. I'd be interested in hearing the theory behind why you consider it worth singling out as a magical act, though.

 
I think that every conscious act is a magical act. When we decide to do something, on purpose, like tell a lie, it is a magical act. A lesser one, yes, but magical, nonetheless. We have decided to act in a way to affect reality - if that is not magic, then what is? What do you think?
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2016, 01:26:40 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;187340
Of course people lie. Like Jack said, just ask anybody in customer service. But I do not follow your logic about how that's even remotely magical. I mean, I guess you're sort of bending reality provided nobody calls you on your bullshit? But that seems like setting the magical bar really low.

Well, how about accumulating a high-standing pile of those "low" acts? They could make a pretty nifty stack, couldn't they? Billionaires have done it, I'm sure. 100 million pennies make 1 million dollars, you know ... I'm a mathematician - I nitpick sometimes - the grandest things are often in those nits & those picks! I can't help but take a look.

People lie - & that doesn't bother me. I expect it from them. "Oh, I never lie" bothers me. It's like saying, I never take a crap - which means that you do but you don't wipe when you're done.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 01:27:27 am by DIASPORA-1963 »
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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Jack

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2016, 01:58:50 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187341
I think that every conscious act is a magical act. When we decide to do something, on purpose, like tell a lie, it is a magical act. A lesser one, yes, but magical, nonetheless. We have decided to act in a way to affect reality - if that is not magic, then what is? What do you think?

 
In general, I lie automatically. Telling the truth is a more conscious act. I'm okay, I'm fine, it's no big deal, happy to help, these fall out of my mouth automatically. Making space for myself, being willing to make other people uncomfortable, this requires real will. That is closer to a magical act, for me.

I think there's some theoretical value in recognizing that magic is simply will acting on the universe and therefore all conscious acts are magical acts, but once you truly understand that you have to move past it into an understanding of what the value is of "doing magic" at all if you're going to continue to call yourself a magician.

But then I think it's very difficult to live every day with complete intention. It reminds me of executive dysfunction - the state where I need to make the decision to do every little thing with complete will and intention, where nothing happens on autopilot, is exhausting. So I suppose I am just not yet able to grasp it.
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Faemon

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2016, 04:41:23 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187341
I think that every conscious act is a magical act. When we decide to do something, on purpose, like tell a lie, it is a magical act. A lesser one, yes, but magical, nonetheless.

We have decided to act in a way to affect reality - if that is not magic, then what is? What do you think?


I think if you define a lie as something that is in direct contradiction to reality, then the generation/enactment of the thing (while "real enough" to have a word for it like lie) won't necessarily affect that which it is contradicting.

F'ex I can say, "I did not murder that person!" all I want, but if I did then it's likely that my alibi won't hold up, my fingerprints will be all over the most incriminating places, and maybe I'll constantly hallucinate a heartbeat under the floorboards where I hid the body and that will drive me insane...r.

I read Carl Sagan's Demon-Haunted World, and he was very close to his parents to the point that he would hallucinate their voices calling his name long after they died, and (if I understood correctly) used that as an example to mean that he understood why people want to believe in ghosts, but as a scientist he had different standards for it and in his own life accepted death in a different way. When people took that testimony of his and twisted it around to serve as "proof" of life after death because, look, Sagan is a scientist so if he says there's ghosts then there must me...that's annoying, appalling, even appropriative; I'd even call it a lie. And I speculate that Sagan...first, I never met him but I take Sagan as an honest bloke...and that he wrote that book to document how easy it is for a lie (borne of lack of critical thinking) to spread, from witch hunts to UFO conspiracy theories, and they change society because those sorts of lies are a part of society.

It doesn't mean that the Queen Mum and Obama are shapeshifting reptile witch-aliens, just because it all makes too much sense not to be true!!!!!

Or do you mean lies like, "I am worth something in this world", oaths like "I'll get to it" (that could still possibly become a lie) or "I will love, honor, and cherish you until death do us part", or describing an ambition or goal as though it were an ineffable progression that cannot be stymied by civil unrest, natural disaster, or economic collapse? Time shall unfold what plaited cunning hides: Who cover faults, at last shame them derides. (I loathe the Bard, by the way. I like Cordelia though.) Of course, if it is a lie that the truth will out, if it is a lie that we are all subject to the truth even if we don't pursue it, then...there is no contradiction: we've got a Lies Cosmology.

But I still can't help but believe that it depends on which circumstances, by what means, and (unfortunately) to whom your cosmology applies. Some people lie more effectively than others (not necessarily better than others, but more effectively especially if they are protected from consequence by even mundane means), and definitely lie more effectively than...should be...
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Darkhawk

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2016, 08:40:01 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187333
Higher (largely ceremonial) Magic is wonderful, yes,

 
If you say so.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2016, 09:46:20 am »
Quote from: Faemon;187346
I think if you define a lie as something that is in direct contradiction to reality, then the generation/enactment of the thing (while "real enough" to have a word for it like lie) won't necessarily affect that which it is contradicting.

F'ex I can say, "I did not murder that person!" all I want, but if I did then it's likely that my alibi won't hold up, my fingerprints will be all over the most incriminating places, and maybe I'll constantly hallucinate a heartbeat under the floorboards where I hid the body and that will drive me insane...r.

I read Carl Sagan's Demon-Haunted World, and he was very close to his parents to the point that he would hallucinate their voices calling his name long after they died, and (if I understood correctly) used that as an example to mean that he understood why people want to believe in ghosts, but as a scientist he had different standards for it and in his own life accepted death in a different way. When people took that testimony of his and twisted it around to serve as "proof" of life after death because, look, Sagan is a scientist so if he says there's ghosts then there must me...that's annoying, appalling, even appropriative; I'd even call it a lie. And I speculate that Sagan...first, I never met him but I take Sagan as an honest bloke...and that he wrote that book to document how easy it is for a lie (borne of lack of critical thinking) to spread, from witch hunts to UFO conspiracy theories, and they change society because those sorts of lies are a part of society.

It doesn't mean that the Queen Mum and Obama are shapeshifting reptile witch-aliens, just because it all makes too much sense not to be true!!!!!

Or do you mean lies like, "I am worth something in this world", oaths like "I'll get to it" (that could still possibly become a lie) or "I will love, honor, and cherish you until death do us part", or describing an ambition or goal as though it were an ineffable progression that cannot be stymied by civil unrest, natural disaster, or economic collapse? Time shall unfold what plaited cunning hides: Who cover faults, at last shame them derides. (I loathe the Bard, by the way. I like Cordelia though.) Of course, if it is a lie that the truth will out, if it is a lie that we are all subject to the truth even if we don't pursue it, then...there is no contradiction: we've got a Lies Cosmology.

But I still can't help but believe that it depends on which circumstances, by what means, and (unfortunately) to whom your cosmology applies. Some people lie more effectively than others (not necessarily better than others, but more effectively especially if they are protected from consequence by even mundane means), and definitely lie more effectively than...should be...

You write very well. I enjoyed reading that. I don’t care for W Shakespeare, either - or the Mona Lisa. Heresy, I know.
I meant "lie" in its conventional, pedestrian sense … I rather resent the way in which Signor Machiavelli is being reconstructed, regardless of whether T is being unearthed. Dear Signor M has suffered w/a certain image for more than 5 centuries, & his apologists (I have been one of them) You write very well. I enjoyed reading that. I don’t care for W Shakespeare, either - or the Mona Lisa. Heresy, I know.
I meant "lie" in its conventional, pedestrian sense … I rather resent the way in which Signor Machiavelli is being reconstructed, regardless of whether T is being unearthed. Dear Signor M has suffered w/a certain image for more than 5 centuries, & his apologists (I have been one of them) have delighted in making excuses) do not want any help from historical baboons who are digging about, disturbing our “fantasies”.
Now, I hold that all deliberate acts are magical in nature.
The human being is not the only animal who does things deliberately, but the human being is the animal whose acts are the most elaborately deliberate.
I hold that magic is – ultimately – a refinement of deliberate action via deliberate intent because the root (ACE) of all action is intention.
A lie – based on its quality & degree of intention – would, by my reasoning, be magical in nature.
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2016, 09:48:24 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;187350
If you say so.

 
Yes, I do say so. I even enjoy watching Papal Masses: they're pretty.
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DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2016, 09:54:42 am »
Quote from: Jack;187344
In general, I lie automatically.

Just first tell me if that's not become a habit.
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Jenett

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2016, 10:20:25 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187333

Enough sarcasm! I'm just tired of talking to people who swear that they never, ever tell a lie - just moments before I overhear them tell a string of "white lies". Well, a lie is LIE. It is a statement that is NOT true, regardless of its color - & we ALL tell them. Every day.


I agree that what I say is a magical act.

This is why I try not to lie. So, y'know, totally different solution than yours.

I believe that as a witch, my word is my power. If I am lying, I am undermining my power. This is not really what I want to do.

There are certainly times I make a choice to lie. (Sometimes people ask me things that are none of their business, sometimes I have to redact confidential information at work and strongly imply the information doesn't exist. Sometimes I am ducking a topic with someone for good reason.)

There are, however, a lot more times I choose not to say something, or choose to say something that is truthful as far as it goes, but might lead someone to assume something that isn't actually what I said.

There are lots and lots of times I give a partial truth: if someone says 'how are you today?'  they do not, in fact, want my entire current status: they are walking in the door at work, or past me in the hallway, and I know and they know that this is a social pleasantry.

If I'm really having a lousy day, I might say "I've had better days, but hi" Most of the time, I say "Fine, thanks, and you?" which is, in the grand scheme of my status, usually true.

(I have multiple chronic health things, so there are very few days in which I am actually feeling healthy and well without footnoting. but there are lot of days when I'm somewhere in my usual personal range of 'I have a pretty good life and I'm fine'. My actual friends get a much more accurate report than people I just see at work.)

Likewise, if someone asks me, say, about details of my religious tradition, I will usually answer some of them but not every detail (and not things that are oathbound, personal, or otherwise not generally shareable.) And I don't draw large neon arrows to highlight the fact I'm doing that. I just pick and choose what I share.

Now, I admit I'm lucky to be in a position where I can do this - but this is a result of a lot of work and time, and choosing a field where accuracy of reporting is favoured over other things.

(I'm a librarian working currently at a library where I end up being a subject expert on a bunch of odd things, so I spend a lot of time with "This is a thing we can demonstrate" and "This is a thing I think is true, but I don't have good evidence, here's some other places to look" and "This is a thing I am pretty sure is false, and here's why.")
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Jack

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 10:33:30 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187353
Just first tell me if that's not become a habit.

The "automatically" part implies something like a habit, but in the same sense where getting dressed is a habit. It's a thing I do daily to get by in society.
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MeadowRae

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 10:33:58 am »
Quote from: Jack;187334
I lie all the time - I work in customer service. I'm happy to help you find that, and no, I don't mind staying open while you finish shopping, and it's definitely no trouble.
.


I just started a job last year that has a customer service bent...this made me cringe because I say things like this all day, every day. I feel like it's eating at my soul a bit, and I can't wait to get out. Some people seem to thrive there, so to each their own.

I believe that words, thoughts, and intentions hold power. So, to that extent, they are all magical acts. This morning my husband said that not all spells have incantations, and I replied that most don't. Simply thinking about harming someone is directing intention; adding words intensifies that.

Lying, I think it would, in many cases, be a magical act against yourself. Lying (or so it feels to me) depletes your energy, making positive thoughts and magical acts less powerful.

At the very least, when you are lyin you are not being true to your authentic self, which doesn't feel great.
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Jack

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Re: Lesser Magic ... & LIES ...
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 10:35:00 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187352
Yes, I do say so. I even enjoy watching Papal Masses: they're pretty.
Are we drawing a direct line between "aestheticly pleasing" and "useful magical tech" or did you have more in mind than that?
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
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