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Author Topic: Dipping my toes into the Tarot  (Read 3415 times)

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2016, 05:46:30 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;189441
The idea wasn't his own. The first to connect the tarot trumps with the Hebrew letters was De Mellet in the 1770s (The World as Aleph, Last Judgment as Bet et cetera), and in the 1850s Eliphas Levi switched the order in the other direction (Magician as Aleph, Popess as Bet et cetera). In UK in the 1880s, Golden Dawn reshuffled the order a third time, ascribing Aleph to The Fool, and in 1904 Crowley switched the letters He and Tsadde, so you have four different correspondences between Hebrew letters and tarot trumps, and that even before beginning to take the four different manuscript families of Sefer Yetzirah - Short text, Long text, Saadia text and Ari-Gra text - in account. Anyone who is interested in combining Hebrew letters and tarot trumps have to face numerous choices, before making a decision of their own.

 
A life's work there, learning all that. I've learned all these symbols for math and the Greek alphabet for math, and I can read French, German, Italian, and Latin - all for math's sake. No, no, I'll leave the Kabalah to others, who, for some reason, believe that Hebrew is a privileged language. I do not believe that. Given enough time to develop a paradigm, similarly "profound" correspondences could be found - or made up - for any human language. I think that John Dee had some success w/English - or was it Latin - and wasn't he the fellow who discovered Enochian? - isn't that supposed to be the language of the angels?
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2016, 05:57:57 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189444
A life's work there, learning all that. I've learned all these symbols for math and the Greek alphabet for math, and I can read French, German, Italian, and Latin - all for math's sake. No, no, I'll leave the Kabalah to others, who, for some reason, believe that Hebrew is a privileged language.


If you read Latin and have user knowledge of the Greek letters, you are fluent in two other privileged languages or alphabets. Then we have Arabic - the language of the Quran and Hurufi mystics - Sanskrit, out of which so many Hindu and Buddhist mantras originate, and Pali, which is chanted for magical purposes - paritta chant - within Theravada Buddhism. Many languages are privileged. Some Nazis tried to use German, Icelandic and (sometimes imagined) Proto-Germanic in a similar way. And ask some Druid eccentrics about Cymric/Welsh!

Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189444
I think that John Dee had some success w/English - or was it Latin - and wasn't he the fellow who discovered Enochian? - isn't that supposed to be the language of the angels?


Dee and his friend Kelley 'discovered' Enochian, yes.

British 20th century occultist William Gray developed a correspondence system between the Latin letters of the English language and the 22 tarot trumps.

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2016, 06:04:44 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;189445
If you read Latin and have user knowledge of the Greek letters, you are fluent in two other privileged languages or alphabets. Then we have Arabic - the language of the Quran and Hurufi mystics - Sanskrit, out of which so many Hindu and Buddhist mantras originate, and Pali, which is chanted for magical purposes - paritta chant - within Theravada Buddhism. Many languages are privileged. Some Nazis tried to use German, Icelandic and (sometimes imagined) Proto-Germanic in a similar way. And ask some Druid eccentrics about Cymric/Welsh!



Dee and his friend Kelley 'discovered' Enochian, yes.

British 20th century occultist William Gray developed a correspondence system between the Latin letters of the English language and the 22 tarot trumps.

 
No, I meant privileged in the sense that it was God's own language, nothing to do w/its social standing. As far as Latin goes, it's hard to think of a more privileged language - except maybe Mandarin.
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2016, 06:28:38 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189446
No, I meant privileged in the sense that it was God's own language (...)


I used it in that way too. For the Hurufis, Arabic was 'God's own language', and, since the Asharis view the Quran as eternal, the same view could be applied by Islam in general (but Neo-Mutazilites would have another point of view, which makes them impopular in the eyes of the predominant Asharis).

For those using mantras, Sanskrit is supernatural (though not God's in the case of non-theistic Buddhism).

The same does apply on my other examples to different extents.

Gray's approach was: Develop a system and then stick to it.

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2016, 06:48:27 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;189447
I used it in that way too. For the Hurufis, Arabic was 'God's own language', and, since the Asharis view the Quran as eternal, the same view could be applied by Islam in general (but Neo-Mutazilites would have another point of view, which makes them impopular in the eyes of the predominant Asharis).

For those using mantras, Sanskrit is supernatural (though not God's in the case of non-theistic Buddhism).

The same does apply on my other examples to different extents.

Gray's approach was: Develop a system and then stick to it.

Yes - Arabic - it did sweep the Near East - and it did look like it might overwhelm the West for awhile, didn't it? Charles Martel ... The Greeks thought that their language was the language of the gods - well, certain dialects of it, anyway - Macedonian Greek was still "barbarian" to their ears, it seems ... Colleen McCullough had her Marius proudly sport a non-Attic accent when he spoke Greek in her Masters of Rome series. He did it on purpose to annoy the aristocrats w/their fine educations, those who had been sent to Athens for "finishing". "You understand what I'm saying, even if it does hurt your ears!"
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DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2016, 06:51:25 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;189447
I used it in that way too. For the Hurufis, Arabic was 'God's own language', and, since the Asharis view the Quran as eternal, the same view could be applied by Islam in general (but Neo-Mutazilites would have another point of view, which makes them impopular in the eyes of the predominant Asharis).

For those using mantras, Sanskrit is supernatural (though not God's in the case of non-theistic Buddhism).

The same does apply on my other examples to different extents.

Gray's approach was: Develop a system and then stick to it.

 
By the by, I doubt that there's anything "supernatural" about any human language, even mathematics, the most glorious of all languages.
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2016, 07:16:09 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189449
By the by, I doubt that there's anything "supernatural" about any human language, even mathematics, the most glorious of all languages.


I do not agree, at least not entirely. Words and languages can be imbued with symbolism and awe by long-standing use. That is another view than the idea of inherent qualities on an ontological level, but in both cases letters, sounds, words and texts can be used for spiritual purposes. Nothing stops a chaos-magical group to construct their own entirely new system of letter symbolism and chanted sounds, but their method will not have accumulated the same amount of frequent use as a system founded centuries or millennia ago. The oldest texts still chanted today are either some hymns from Rig-Veda or some of the gathas in Avesta, depending on how we ought to date these texts, with a few parts of the Hebrew Bible coming very close in time to them, especially Judges 5 and Psalm 104 (LXX 103).

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2016, 08:18:34 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;189450
I do not agree, at least not entirely. Words and languages can be imbued with symbolism and awe by long-standing use. That is another view than the idea of inherent qualities on an ontological level, but in both cases letters, sounds, words and texts can be used for spiritual purposes. Nothing stops a chaos-magical group to construct their own entirely new system of letter symbolism and chanted sounds, but their method will not have accumulated the same amount of frequent use as a system founded centuries or millennia ago. The oldest texts still chanted today are either some hymns from Rig-Veda or some of the gathas in Avesta, depending on how we ought to date these texts, with a few parts of the Hebrew Bible coming very close in time to them, especially Judges 5 and Psalm 104 (LXX 103).

I have a hard time w/the word "supernatural" - what does it mean? God? Ghosts? Why is God apart from nature? Remember - I'm a pantheist. I don't believe in a God who is separate from Creation - or us, for that matter ... As for the word "natural", I've grown to dislike it b/c I've heard it hurled about by bigots, especially regarding sexuality. In a World where even birds exhibit homosexual behavior to say that "God hates fags" is ridiculous, especially when you base it on a politically inspired interpolation of a bad translation of a mistranslation to begin with - but foam at the mouth they will. Never was Freud more correct when he suspected that the haters were repressed homosexuals themselves!
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2016, 06:26:57 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189452
I have a hard time w/the word "supernatural" - what does it mean? God? Ghosts? Why is God apart from nature? Remember - I'm a pantheist. I don't believe in a God who is separate from Creation - or us, for that matter ... As for the word "natural", I've grown to dislike it b/c I've heard it hurled about by bigots, especially regarding sexuality. In a World where even birds exhibit homosexual behavior to say that "God hates fags" is ridiculous, especially when you base it on a politically inspired interpolation of a bad translation of a mistranslation to begin with - but foam at the mouth they will. Never was Freud more correct when he suspected that the haters were repressed homosexuals themselves!


Ah. So the word supernatural was the problem? I just grasped for a word that was able to cover God, gods, goddesses and buddhas, not taking sides in the quarrels between the religious worldviews. Is supra-mundane better?

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2016, 07:11:45 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;189458
Ah. So the word supernatural was the problem? I just grasped for a word that was able to cover God, gods, goddesses and buddhas, not taking sides in the quarrels between the religious worldviews. Is supra-mundane better?

You've coined an excellent new term - "supra-mundane", especially since I rather fancy the word mundane to describe daily life.

If supra-mundane can be taken to mean having no extension to realms beyond our reach, then I am satisfied w/it ... I bristle at the idea that anything - and I mean anything - is beyond our reach.

Yes, there is and always will be an infinitude of things that we do not know - but that is not the same as saying that there is any one thing among that infinitude that we cannot discover. We will never know everything that there is to know - but there is nothing to know that we could not learn if we came across it. The human being is brilliant - absolutely brilliant. In that I have a great deal of faith.

"But what if we fail to see the interconnecting patterns?" So, what? We don't see them all now - yet we survive.

It's wonderful that there will always be something left to learn!
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MeadowRae

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2016, 07:25:56 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;189434
The history of tarot is confusing and filled with a ton of horseshit. That's partially what makes it interesting.

Some how-to manuals are better than others. There's certainly a glut of shitty ones - I don't disagree with you there - but there are many wonderful books that explain symbolism and magical systems associated with the cards. If you're an intuitive reader, great! That is perfectly valid, as I've said before. Again: my mother and sister are both intuitive readers, I'm not shitting on their preferred method. But some people have an interest in different aspects of the cards.

The OP is interested in Jungian approaches to the tarot. Others are interested in the associations it has with Qabala. Others use the tarot in magic. While an intuitive approach is great, if you're exploring different facets of the tarot it can be extremely helpful to have books that deal with those topics specifically.

(And yes, I have The Book of Thoth. I also have Lon Milo DuQuette's Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot. I enjoyed both, although DuQuette is always going to come out on top over Uncle Al for me.)


.

 
Winsaur posted about the Qabala earlier in the thread. While I find it really interesting; I just don't think that approach is for me. I don't really want to dive into Crowley's work, but Jung is very intriguing to me. I consider myself a mostly intuitive person, but I wanted to read some resources before I got a deck. I feel like looking at all of those cards with no background knowledge would be overwhelming for me. Once again, to each their own.

I have noticed the vast number of resources on Tarot; which is why I'm so sincerely thankful for this forum. Otherwise I would have a ton of books/resources to sift through, probably wasting a good amount of funding on them in the process. The libraries here don't carry many occult books, or books for any religion other than Christianity for that matter. There is one sort-of metaphysical store about 20 minutes from where I live, but she carries mostly gemstones and figurines; not many books. Almost all of my books come from Amazon.
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Wimsaur

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2016, 11:56:10 am »
Quote from: ViolaRae;189460
Winsaur posted about the Qabala earlier in the thread. While I find it really interesting; I just don't think that approach is for me. I don't really want to dive into Crowley's work, but Jung is very intriguing to me. I consider myself a mostly intuitive person, but I wanted to read some resources before I got a deck. I feel like looking at all of those cards with no background knowledge would be overwhelming for me. Once again, to each their own.

I have noticed the vast number of resources on Tarot; which is why I'm so sincerely thankful for this forum. Otherwise I would have a ton of books/resources to sift through, probably wasting a good amount of funding on them in the process. The libraries here don't carry many occult books, or books for any religion other than Christianity for that matter. There is one sort-of metaphysical store about 20 minutes from where I live, but she carries mostly gemstones and figurines; not many books. Almost all of my books come from Amazon.
You don't have to dive into Crowley to explore Qabalah.
Again, Qabalah will teach you to get in tune with the archetypes that you are looking for.

Qabalah, Alchemy, Astrology, and Alchemy, all share similar archetypes that no doubt influenced Jung.

Jung didn't teach anything new, but rather revived something old.

Wimsaur..

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2016, 08:58:10 pm »
Quote from: ViolaRae;189460
Winsaur posted about the Qabala earlier in the thread. While I find it really interesting; I just don't think that approach is for me. I don't really want to dive into Crowley's work, but Jung is very intriguing to me. I consider myself a mostly intuitive person, but I wanted to read some resources before I got a deck. I feel like looking at all of those cards with no background knowledge would be overwhelming for me. Once again, to each their own.

 
Hi, ViolaRae,

I've moved this thread from 'Magic and the Occult for Beginners' into 'The Divinatory Arts' - I wondered about doing so when you first posted, since it isn't really a 'beginner' perspective to be wondering about the Jungian connections with tarot, but decided to wait and see if it became apparent over time that you needed more 'beginner-area' responses.

What you've been getting is definitely not beginner-area responses; in fact, it's a deeper convo than we've had in The Divinatory Arts in quite a while. And you seem to be holding your own okay. You might want to start another thread for the other things you alluded to wondering, but didn't quite ask about, in your OP, though - it'd probably work to have those in The Divinatory Arts as well, since it's been a place friendly to novice divination questions going back to when it was a SIG.

A Reminder:
To everyone,

A major part of why I decided to move the thread after all is that the responses went into enough depth that it was no longer well-suited for the beginner area - and that it had developed some tangents that were far afield of the original topic.

Please try to keep in mind where a post is, when responding to it, and form your responses accordingly.

Also, while thread drift does happen, we do prefer if it doesn't go too far from the OP's topic too quickly; try to remain topical. That's especially relevant now that it's in a topic-specific area: try to keep your responses divination-related, please, or start a new thread in a more suitable forum.

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MeadowRae

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2016, 07:16:05 am »
Quote from: Wimsaur;189472
You don't have to dive into Crowley to explore Qabalah.
Again, Qabalah will teach you to get in tune with the archetypes that you are looking for.

Qabalah, Alchemy, Astrology, and Alchemy, all share similar archetypes that no doubt influenced Jung.

Jung didn't teach anything new, but rather revived something old.

Wimsaur..


I have no doubt that those concepts/systems influenced Jung, as he claimed that they had always existed and he was looking for meaning in them. It's just a bit over my head for right now and not what I'm leaning towards.

As always, thank you for your wisdom, Wimsaur. :)
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MeadowRae

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Re: Dipping my toes into the Tarot
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2016, 07:18:28 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;189495
Hi, ViolaRae,

I've moved this thread from 'Magic and the Occult for Beginners' into 'The Divinatory Arts' - I wondered about doing so when you first posted, since it isn't really a 'beginner' perspective to be wondering about the Jungian connections with tarot, but decided to wait and see if it became apparent over time that you needed more 'beginner-area' responses.

What you've been getting is definitely not beginner-area responses; in fact, it's a deeper convo than we've had in The Divinatory Arts in quite a while. And you seem to be holding your own okay. You might want to start another thread for the other things you alluded to wondering, but didn't quite ask about, in your OP, though - it'd probably work to have those in The Divinatory Arts as well, since it's been a place friendly to novice divination questions going back to when it was a SIG.

 

 
I guess I underestimated myself a bit. Thank you for the move and the confidence boost, Sunflower.
The genderqueer witch your mother warned you about

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