collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Problem with qabalah in the tarot  (Read 3008 times)

Wintersong

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 24
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Problem with qabalah in the tarot
« on: November 14, 2012, 09:31:29 pm »
I've been working with tarot cards on and off, for about a year now.  I feel as though I have hit a wall.  As much as I believe the tarot could be an extremely effective tool for several reasons, I am simply not responding to them mentally.  I recently read The 78 degrees of Wisdom, among other books, and I am starting to think that the tarots qabalistic symbolism is...repelling me...I have a bit of a long and arduous history with abrahamic religions and am at the point where they are "salt to my spiritual slug", so to speak.  What I am wondering is this; does anyone else struggle with the qabalistic/jewish symbols that prevail throughout the tarot?  I hate to give up, but I am pretty sure you can't force divination to work and gain any true wisdom from it.

P.s. Yes, I stepped into the tarot with all the wrong ideas (simple formula based fortune telling), but slowly taught myself the facts from the fictions.
“All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone\'s feelings.”
― Denis Diderot

Annie Roonie

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 915
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 10:41:12 pm »
Quote from: Wintersong;80901
What I am wondering is this; does anyone else struggle with the qabalistic/jewish symbols that prevail throughout the tarot?  I hate to give up, but I am pretty sure you can't force divination to work and gain any true wisdom from it.


My Golden Dawn tarot has a strong inclusion of Hermetic Qabalah and it doesn't bother me. What I struggle with is finding the time to research all of the symbols as deeply as I'd like.

If there is anything in a deck that distracts me in a unproductive way, I don't keep it. I had a deck inspired by Native American symbolism once and it didn't bother me, but it didn't speak to me either. I gave it to my mother. I've been given the Aquarian tarot several times because I am an aquarius and it has never fit my hand well either. I've regifted that one the most. Ha!

There are so many decks on the market that finding one that suits you better might only be made difficult by the choosing. So I don't think you have to give that form of divination up.

Still, if you find yourself averse to tarot there are other deck options you may want to look into like oracle decks. And of course the other forms of divination may be a better fit for you too.

Wintersong

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 24
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2012, 10:58:49 pm »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;80913


There are so many decks on the market that finding one that suits you better might only be made difficult by the choosing. So I don't think you have to give that form of divination up.

Still, if you find yourself averse to tarot there are other deck options you may want to look into like oracle decks. And of course the other forms of divination may be a better fit for you too.

 
First off, let me say that I mean no disrespect to anybody/religion.  I did purchase a Viking tarot deck (I am simply in love with European lore of all kinds) but found them to be even worse for inspiring my unconscious.  The cards don't seem to link together the way that Pamela Smiths major arcana does.  And why is Tyr the magician?  Either way...I am amazed by the structure of the Tarot, especially the major arcana.  Pamela Smiths cards are meant to be read as a constellation, not star by star.  The inherent wisdom seems so obvious when I read about the cards, but when I clear my mind and lay them out, its like being stuck between two radio stations.  The 22 cards for the 22 Hebrew letters, the fool being given the number zero (infinite potential),  given the aleph, which is a silent carrier of vowels...Again, not anti-Semitic, it is just not my path and I don't feel right walking down it.   I guess my other question is this?  What other form of divination is so thorough and deep, and has the potential to paint such a clear and complete picture.
“All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone\'s feelings.”
― Denis Diderot

Laveth

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 885
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2012, 11:02:56 pm »
Quote from: Wintersong;80901
I've been working with tarot cards on and off, for about a year now.  I feel as though I have hit a wall.  As much as I believe the tarot could be an extremely effective tool for several reasons, I am simply not responding to them mentally.  I recently read The 78 degrees of Wisdom, among other books, and I am starting to think that the tarots qabalistic symbolism is...repelling me...I have a bit of a long and arduous history with abrahamic religions and am at the point where they are "salt to my spiritual slug", so to speak.  What I am wondering is this; does anyone else struggle with the qabalistic/jewish symbols that prevail throughout the tarot?  I hate to give up, but I am pretty sure you can't force divination to work and gain any true wisdom from it.

P.s. Yes, I stepped into the tarot with all the wrong ideas (simple formula based fortune telling), but slowly taught myself the facts from the fictions.


If it makes you feel any better, I've been using Tarot for over a decade and despite the massive amount of literature available detailing the use of the Qabalah in Tarot, it has never ever ever appealed to me in the slightest. Don't feel obligated to include it in your practices if it's uncomfortable to you.

Wintersong

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 24
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2012, 11:16:41 pm »
Quote from: Laveth;80919
Don't feel obligated to include it in your practices if it's uncomfortable to you.


Yeah, I know that ultimately have total autonomy in my practices, but something about the god of abraham just...I don't know, It's hard to explain without sounding like a wishy-washy goth kid (or being too much of a disrespectful douche bag), but I feel that I reject as much as I am rejected in this case.  I guess i'm just torn because I love the foundation but can't stand the paint job.  Oh well, maybe I could learn to throw bones or use the fish poop floating around in my aquarium to divine with.  Sometimes I am just too analytical and other times I am way too idealistic.
“All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone\'s feelings.”
― Denis Diderot

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 11:28:19 pm »
(deleting accidental double-post due to choppy net connection)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 11:31:50 pm by Faemon »
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 11:30:34 pm »
Quote from: Wintersong;80901
I am starting to think that the tarots qabalistic symbolism is...repelling me...I have a bit of a long and arduous history with abrahamic religions and am at the point where they are "salt to my spiritual slug", so to speak.  What I am wondering is this; does anyone else struggle with the qabalistic/jewish symbols that prevail throughout the tarot?

Nope. I decided that it was an unnecessary complication laid over a deck that was really the first cousin ordinary playing cards, and excluded it from my practice. I appreciate that The Tower is Babel, Judgment is the Apocalypse, the Lovers are Adam and Eve... but that's just my springboard, because these are stories I was told while I was growing up. I doubt that those playing 15th century poker got too deep into Jewish mysticism, so the estuary of all those different echoes, are where I read from.

The Devil for example-- was that really what God's persecuting attorney looked like to the Jews? Or did that come later, in demonizing Pan or Faunus? I keep hearing how the Hanged Man is either Jesus or Odin and I'm, like, "Not similar figures!" I just can't help thinking that if they didn't all come from the same spiritual place, then applying something connected to one part that came from that place way over there, to all the other parts ... that doesn't work, for me. So, I don't do it.
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Laveth

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 885
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 11:40:56 pm »
Quote from: Wintersong;80923
Yeah, I know that ultimately have total autonomy in my practices, but something about the god of abraham just...I don't know, It's hard to explain without sounding like a wishy-washy goth kid (or being too much of a disrespectful douche bag), but I feel that I reject as much as I am rejected in this case.  I guess i'm just torn because I love the foundation but can't stand the paint job.  Oh well, maybe I could learn to throw bones or use the fish poop floating around in my aquarium to divine with.  Sometimes I am just too analytical and other times I am way too idealistic.

 
I wish I wasn't so exhausted right now, my messages may come across as being entirely.. alien.. because I have a crazy brain and it gets amplified when I'm tired. So I'll try to get my point across, and if I sound like a leprechaun... I'll reiterate later. :)

From what you're describing, I think you are being too analytical. I know different people have different ways of perceiving Tarot and how it works, or how it ought to work, so I'll clarify that what I state here is based on my own experiences and understanding. Maybe you'll find something in it that makes sense to you or seems to sync.

I have never felt that the Abrahamic-related religions held anything but old truths covered by new stories, to put it nicely. I don't want to step on any toes. But honestly, growing up I've felt nothing but disdain for those lines. I've chalked it up to it just not being anywhere near the right path for me.

That being said, while a lot of decks include that kind of symbology, there are also a lot that don't. The only decks that have ever worked for me are those that allow me to drop into a trance state and simply divine via the visions, journeys, and intuition that comes to me. The ones that build their imagery on science, or non-image symbolism (things like crosses, pentacles, anything that requires some kind of analytical thought) just don't encourage that state.

There are thousands of decks out there, take the time to look through them until you find one that draws you. Sometimes it takes awhile, and there's no reason to be analytical in order to perceive the messages that come through.

I hope that made some kind of sense and that I didn't just miss the point entirely. Like I said, exhausted. I'll read through it later to see how disjointed this post looks and if I can fix it. :p

Wintersong

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 24
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 11:43:19 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;80926
I keep hearing how the Hanged Man is either Jesus or [i
Odin[/i] and I'm, like, "Not similar figures!" I just can't help thinking that if they didn't all come from the same spiritual place, then applying something connected to one part that came from that place way over there, to all the other parts ... that doesn't work, for me. So, I don't do it.

 
I had heard the Odin theory, but also St. Paul (the one crucified upside down if I am not mistaken) Either way, I am just wondering if I suck at divination or if I cannot read tarot cards worth a damn (and isn't tarot supposed to be something of an anagram taro = tora like on the High Priestess' scroll?) or if the symbolism just will not work with me because of my bias against YHVH.

I am willing to accept that I am making entirely too much of this, but I do what my brain tells me to do...Its a love-hate relationship.

And another thing...Does anybody think that you have to have some innate level of conscious awareness to better divine properly, even using other methods?
“All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone\'s feelings.”
― Denis Diderot

Wintersong

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 24
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 11:52:50 pm »
Quote from: Laveth;80927


I have never felt that the Abrahamic-related religions held anything but old truths covered by new stories, to put it nicely. I don't want to step on any toes. But honestly, growing up I've felt nothing but disdain for those lines. I've chalked it up to it just not being anywhere near the right path for me.


 

Actually, I found your post to be a nugget of delicious, chewy brain foods (I have to go to bed very soon myself.)  I like the part about the old truths/new stories, that will give me something to mull around in the noggin.  it's just a bummer because I never really connected with any gods, truth be told, and feel like that has put me at a spiritual disadvantage in just about every arena.  A little more than a year ago, I was a hard core solipsist and staunch atheist (couldn't be bothered to believe in god/gods if I can't even make peace with reality) So I tend to put spiritual matters under a very intense scrutiny and cannibalize my own soul.  Wish I didn't do it, was hoping some form of divination would give me a reason to reach past the visible and tangible, but logic is proving to be one hell of a drug.
“All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone\'s feelings.”
― Denis Diderot

Annie Roonie

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 915
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 11:58:31 pm »
Quote from: Wintersong;80915
I guess my other question is this?  What other form of divination is so thorough and deep, and has the potential to paint such a clear and complete picture.


I think runes can be very deep. Some oracle decks too.

And fish dookie aside (not my medium of choice, ha!) there are so many different forms of divination to explore and many of them are plenty deep. I don't think tarot does actually always paint a clear and complete picture, so I often use other forms myself.

Also, developing your own system isn't unheard of. That might be more your thing. It's challenging, but it could be very worthwhile too.

Conscious awareness is helpful in most things, but sometimes letting go a bit during divination can be more helpful to me especially when I am in an overly analytical mindset. And it depends on the form too. I am very slow with tea leave reading because it is very difficult for me to let my mind go with it, so I take a pic of my cup and come back to it when I am in a more conducive of mind.

Laveth

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 885
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2012, 12:02:38 am »
Quote from: Wintersong;80929
Actually, I found your post to be a nugget of delicious, chewy brain foods (I have to go to bed very soon myself.)  I like the part about the old truths/new stories, that will give me something to mull around in the noggin.  it's just a bummer because I never really connected with any gods, truth be told, and feel like that has put me at a spiritual disadvantage in just about every arena.  A little more than a year ago, I was a hard core solipsist and staunch atheist (couldn't be bothered to believe in god/gods if I can't even make peace with reality) So I tend to put spiritual matters under a very intense scrutiny and cannibalize my own soul.  Wish I didn't do it, was hoping some form of divination would give me a reason to reach past the visible and tangible, but logic is proving to be one hell of a drug.


Maybe I'll have to expand on my earlier post somewhere down the line. I'll tell you something that's really impacted the way I divine in the past several years though, is that a lot of the symbolism that Christianity uses also has roots in a lot of different pagan lore. A lot of the stories between different paths tend to describe similar things under different names or use different methods to describe it, but in the end the concept is still pretty similar. As we are all human, and we all experience the same feelings.

One thing that might help, find a deck that you particularly like the artwork of in its own right. Forget the meanings, forget the analytical methods of interpreting it, don't even look at the booklet it comes with. Pick a card each day, look it over for awhile, try to look 'into' the colors, the lines, the shading and overall flow of the cards and see what pops into your mind. But there's no 'innate level of consciousness' to divination. Basically, you just need to learn how to relax and let that dream-like state that you get when you're super tired take over.

And for the record, I've been divining for ages and I only started connected with 'deities' (which, in my path, have a different definition) after my nervous breakdown a few years back. And those were some pretty interesting circumstances anyway. Yes, I ramble; point is that you don't need to connect with any deities, spirits, ghosts, Faeries, ponies, unicorns, spaghetti monsters, whatever, to divine. If you're drawn to Tarot, find a deck that calls to you and just spend time with the deck. It sounds dumb, but sleep with it on your nightstand or headboard, look over it often, and treat it like a friend. You'll notice the effect in time. If you want more intel or.... clarification... you can drop me a pm. :) It might be an easier way to catch me in a more conscious state. ^^

Nachtigall

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 287
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 04:14:05 am »
Quote from: Wintersong;80901
I've been working with tarot cards on and off, for about a year now.  I feel as though I have hit a wall.  As much as I believe the tarot could be an extremely effective tool for several reasons, I am simply not responding to them mentally.  I recently read The 78 degrees of Wisdom, among other books, and I am starting to think that the tarots qabalistic symbolism is...repelling me...I have a bit of a long and arduous history with abrahamic religions and am at the point where they are "salt to my spiritual slug", so to speak.  What I am wondering is this; does anyone else struggle with the qabalistic/jewish symbols that prevail throughout the tarot?  I hate to give up, but I am pretty sure you can't force divination to work and gain any true wisdom from it.

P.s. Yes, I stepped into the tarot with all the wrong ideas (simple formula based fortune telling), but slowly taught myself the facts from the fictions.

 
True, while there are plenty of modern decks that do not use the qabalistic symbolism in their imagery, but since the vast majority of them is derived from the GD system, it is still the underlying structure in them. So, if it does bother you this much... perhaps, you should better try to use other system of divination, such as runes?

On the other hand: what exactly is bothering you? Are you more ok with Neoplatonism or any other form of non-Abrahamic monotheism? You don't have to adhere to it, but if it at least doesn't repulse you, that might help you to accept the Qabalistic symbolism in Tarot more easily. After all, Western Qabala, the GD version of it, is only loosely derived from (or one can even say, inspired by) Jewish teachings

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10177
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 254
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 08:03:02 am »
Quote from: Wintersong;80901
What I am wondering is this; does anyone else struggle with the qabalistic/jewish symbols that prevail throughout the tarot?  I hate to give up, but I am pretty sure you can't force divination to work and gain any true wisdom from it.

It sounds like you need to find a deck who symbolism calls to you -- and strongly qabalistic symbolism does not speak to you in a positive way.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free
OSR.SPACE: Old School Tabletop RPG Community

JovesChild

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 46
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Problem with qabalah in the tarot...
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 09:07:15 am »
Quote from: RandallS;80969
It sounds like you need to find a deck who symbolism calls to you -- and strongly qabalistic symbolism does not speak to you in a positive way.

 
Or perhaps a simple solution might be cropping down the deck to remove those symbols? If the rest of the imagery works but that minor piece distracts, cut it out. Might work.


Just my own two cents: I understand that dissonance with the Abrahamic god. I grew up with him as my only path available, but he just wasn't my god. Took me a while to not harbour resentment on what I saw as HIS failings until I realized he wasn't the one calling to me and wasn't the one I was meant to follow or honour. (Now if only my parents would not fear or lament for my loss of "faith"...)
Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. ~ Keller

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
13 Replies
2300 Views
Last post July 20, 2011, 04:45:39 pm
by SatSekhem
4 Replies
1432 Views
Last post December 02, 2011, 11:29:59 pm
by Marilyn/Absentminded
5 Replies
971 Views
Last post April 22, 2012, 09:59:43 am
by Micheál
10 Replies
2478 Views
Last post May 08, 2012, 06:39:12 pm
by Melamphoros
6 Replies
977 Views
Last post February 06, 2014, 02:24:50 am
by Emma Eldritch

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 33
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall