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Author Topic: One month out of sync  (Read 999 times)

cigfran

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One month out of sync
« on: July 26, 2012, 12:20:32 pm »
Ok, so none of this is probably new to any consistent and studied practitioners of Astrology - which is in fact what I'm hoping for.

I farted around a lot with astrology when I was much younger and, without concerning myself much with 'belief' in its efficacy, got fairly good at casting simple charts and so on. That interest drifted for a long time, but like a lot of things in my worldview (which, as you see, I think of as driftwood), it has always been there, rising and receding at intervals.

Now, I recently acquired an ipad, and one of the things I loaded onto it is a very nice stargazing app that follows your motion and allows you to see what's in the direction you're viewing. Last night I was swinging the thing around and saw that the Sun was right smack in the middle of the Crab.

But, but... we're in Leo, right?

Ahh... no. Even Wikipedia makes note that the conventional calendar we use to assign zodiac signs to birth months is so old that it's fully a month out of sync by now.

So how does an astrologer work under these circumstances? Do you cast the chart as it actually is, and assign the real sun sign, regardless of convention? Do you wave your hand and make some noises about the timing being more important than the timepiece, and assign the sun sign by calendar date? Or do you ignore the whole thing, toss out sun signs entirely, and stick with the stars, planets and so on?

Either way, it seems to me that "hey baby, what's your sign" is totally whack now.

Darkhawk

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Re: One month out of sync
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 01:39:49 pm »
Quote from: cigfran;66098

So how does an astrologer work under these circumstances? Do you cast the chart as it actually is, and assign the real sun sign, regardless of convention? Do you wave your hand and make some noises about the timing being more important than the timepiece, and assign the sun sign by calendar date? Or do you ignore the whole thing, toss out sun signs entirely, and stick with the stars, planets and so on?

 
Not an astrologer, but:

The chart as it actually is according to the system of Western astrology is done according to the calculations that are approximated by calendar date.

There are other systems of astrology that refer to actual celestial objects (Vedic astrology, I think, for one?) against the actual current stellar background.  Western astrology is not one of them.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

cigfran

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Re: One month out of sync
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 01:43:55 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;66109
The chart as it actually is according to the system of Western astrology is done according to the calculations that are approximated by calendar date.

 
If I understand what you're saying then yes... but the problem is that the calendar date is off by a month in the case of sun signs. No one I know that has been born in the late July to mid August period has ever been told that they're not a Leo, even though the Sun is not actually in Leo during that period anymore.

Darkhawk

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Re: One month out of sync
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 01:45:30 pm »
Quote from: cigfran;66111
If I understand what you're saying then yes... but the problem is that the calendar date is off by a month in the case of sun signs. No one I know that has been born in the late July to mid August period has ever been told that they're not a Leo, even though the Sun is not actually in Leo during that period anymore.

 
No, that's exactly wrong.

The starfield is not what Western astrology references.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Darkhawk

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Re: One month out of sync
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 01:47:47 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;66112
The starfield is not what Western astrology references.

 
Here, this actually explains it because it's written by someone who knows what they're talking about:

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_praezession_e.htm
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

cigfran

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Re: One month out of sync
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 02:05:53 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;66113
Here, this actually explains it because it's written by someone who knows what they're talking about:

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_praezession_e.htm

 
Thanks for the reference. Very helpful.

Ok, so while we may refer to them as "sun signs", they're not, really, and presumably every astrologer worth her soy sauce already knows this. All that matter is which 30 degree portion of the ecliptic is (on top at noon?) on the day in question.

Sorted.

Darkhawk

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Re: One month out of sync
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2012, 04:47:41 pm »
Quote from: cigfran;66115
Thanks for the reference. Very helpful.

Ok, so while we may refer to them as "sun signs", they're not, really, and presumably every astrologer worth her soy sauce already knows this. All that matter is which 30 degree portion of the ecliptic is (on top at noon?) on the day in question.

Sorted.


"Sun signs" have to do with which chunk of the ecliptic the sun is in.  People call those sun signs because the planet whose position is relevant is the sun.  As opposed to moon signs, etc.

And it's not 'on the day', it's 'at the moment'.  For a lot of stuff you can approximate by day since planets don't move that fast, but if you don't have a time you don't have stuff like ascendant.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

cigfran

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One month out of sync
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 08:51:39 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;66137
"Sun signs" have to do with which chunk of the ecliptic the sun is in.  People call those sun signs because the planet whose position is relevant is the sun.  As opposed to moon signs, etc.

And it's not 'on the day', it's 'at the moment'.  For a lot of stuff you can approximate by day since planets don't move that fast, but if you don't have a time you don't have stuff like ascendant.

I just wanted to pop back here and say thank you for the linkage and assistance. I've been doing a lot of reading since I brought this up and it's been very helpful.

And damn, but this stuff is complicated. I can understand why people with an attraction to numbers and patterns - which has always been a risky gravity well for me - get very caught up in this study.

wadjet

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Re: One month out of sync
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 09:08:16 am »
Quote from: cigfran;67479
I just wanted to pop back here and say thank you for the linkage and assistance. I've been doing a lot of reading since I brought this up and it's been very helpful.

And damn, but this stuff is complicated. I can understand why people with an attraction to numbers and patterns - which has always been a risky gravity well for me - get very caught up in this study.

 
I just happened to catch this thread; the other day I came across a thread somewhere else that recommended this chart generator, which gives a current Western version. The suggested chart style was the Natal Wheel Chart with the Astrodienst Fixed Stars. However it also calculates DOZENS of other kinds of charts which I know almost nothing about, from many different schools and layouts. Hopefully it'll help you (or someone) in their research so they can see real-time charts for examples.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/genchart.cgi (It requires a free account; I haven't got any spam from it.)

Here's mine with the birth information edited out. It's, uh, rather lopsided, as you can see. :whis:


cigfran

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Re: One month out of sync
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2012, 10:41:18 am »
Quote from: wadjet;67779
Here's mine with the birth information edited out. It's, uh, rather lopsided, as you can see. :whis:

 
A sort of goaty, horsey kind of smell. :p

cigfran

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Re: One month out of sync
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2012, 10:10:18 am »
Quote from: wadjet;67779
Here's mine with the birth information edited out.

 
One thing I noticed, by the way, is that the chart nicely illustrates the question I originally brought up.

Notice that the chart says the sun is in capricorn, and displays that in the inner circle with the sun symbol placed in the arc labeled with the capricorn symbol. But if you look at the outer circle, where the actual star positions are indicated, capricorn isn't in that sector at all. And for that matter, the constellation of aquarius spills out across two sectors.

Which is why it is as Darkhawk said, and I've been reading about: solar/planetary astrology isn't about the relationship of those bodies to the actual constellations at all, but about the relations to equal-portioned arcs along the plane of the ecliptic that bear the names of the original zodiac - presumably because when these arcs were defined, these constellations lay roughly in these zones. It's not about the 'stars affecting your life' but about how the rhythms of your life relate to the cycles of a very complicated clock.

As I said, fascinating to people with a bit of an compulsive attraction to systems and patterns.


She says, sheepishly.

wadjet

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Re: One month out of sync
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 03:19:49 pm »
Quote from: cigfran;67792
A sort of goaty, horsey kind of smell. :p

 
I actually LOL'd at this. Yeah. It amuses me that the signs that would otherwise balance it out end up swinging it back towards the intellectual/philosophical side. Mars in Libra? Seriously? It makes a easy chart to read for illustrative purposes, though!

Quote from: cigfran;67988
One thing I noticed, by the way, is that the chart nicely illustrates the question I originally brought up.

Notice that the chart says the sun is in capricorn, and displays that in the inner circle with the sun symbol placed in the arc labeled with the capricorn symbol. But if you look at the outer circle, where the actual star positions are indicated, capricorn isn't in that sector at all. And for that matter, the constellation of aquarius spills out across two sectors.

Which is why it is as Darkhawk said, and I've been reading about: solar/planetary astrology isn't about the relationship of those bodies to the actual constellations at all, but about the relations to equal-portioned arcs along the plane of the ecliptic that bear the names of the original zodiac - presumably because when these arcs were defined, these constellations lay roughly in these zones. It's not about the 'stars affecting your life' but about how the rhythms of your life relate to the cycles of a very complicated clock.

As I said, fascinating to people with a bit of an compulsive attraction to systems and patterns.


She says, sheepishly.


Actually, I'm glad you explained that, because I haven't even tried to understand it at all. Back when I was in college I was considering going into Astrophysics in Grad, but other than having a standard chart done years ago (pre-internet) I stayed away from Astrology in general.

I suppose it would be vastly complicated, because if you consider they're using a concept of a celestial sphere upon which the (basically arbitrary) points of the houses are defined (simply to track their movement), but the sphere is only in relation to the observer and therefore moves with the observer through space and time. Immensely intricate, and certainly explains why it's not so easy as "Mars is in Aries so I'm angry today". (Doesn't explain why my chart's so damn accurate, though.)

(Another random funfact: I forgot which one now, but yesterday when I was googling random bits on my chart, one of the signs was like "You will be screwed with money, over and over again." I was like, lol, story of my life, thanks.)

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