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Author Topic: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21  (Read 4832 times)

ehbowen

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2018, 09:53:43 pm »
Billy Graham, 'America's Pastor' And Noted Evangelist, Dead At 99

Billy Graham, America's pastor, has died

Well done, good and faithful servant. Well done.

I've been mulling over my feelings on this all day. I wasn't going to respond because I really don't feel like having any kind of debate about the way I feel, but I need to get it off my chest anyway.

On the one hand, it is always sad to see someone that so many looked up to die.

On the other, the legacy that he leaves behind is one that has done quite a lot of harm to many, especially those who are LGBT. The doctrine of evangelicalism that was built from his ministry is one that I spent many years struggling with - and still do. John Beckett does a better job of articulating many of the feelings I have felt today on his blog, specifically in regards to his decision not to grapple with his own doubts.

But there is another element that's stuck in my craw all day. Why does Billy Graham get so much praise - because he's famous? What about the martyrs who die for their faith every day? What about the poor rural pastor who devoted his entire life to serving his community, toiling in relative obscurity but no less passionate or faithful than Mr. Graham? The outpouring of memes and praise suggesting that God is throwing him a party is... distasteful, whether you're a fan of his preaching or no.

He was a man who lived and died. His work on this earth did good for some, and harm for others. His legacy is one that has hurt me and my friends personally. As a feminist, I dislike the notion of the Billy Graham rule and resent its usage in modern politics. As someone who grappled long and hard with the tough questions of literalist scriptural interpretation, I dislike the fact that he didn't do a lot of grappling himself. I dislike the mantle his son has assumed, and the shape that evangelical christianity has taken in America, one of intolerance and rigidity, that leaves no room for those that Jesus himself placed first - the poor, the weak, the needy. The form that the faith took based on his teachings and interpretations is one I ultimately rejected because, although it spoke of an unlimited and all loving God, I found it limiting and unloving.

I am still presently surrounded by people who are singing his praises and mourning his passing, and feel frustrated by this praise of an imperfect man who ended up doing a lot of harm to those who don't fit the mold being glorified as someone the Christian God would give preferential treatment for.

 I don't really have anything elegant to say about it beyond that - just my two cents that weren't gonna go away until I said something.

Valentine

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2018, 01:15:43 am »
His legacy is one that has hurt me and my friends personally.

Billy Graham's teachings and labors--from his anti-Semitism to his racial and economic politics to his insistently virulent homophobia and transphobia and advocacy for torturous "reparative therapy" inflicted on children--ruined many, many, many lives. His teaching that AIDS was a righteous punishment on sinners, while he had the ear of Presidents, probably helped shape policy that condemned countless people to excruciating deaths. He was certainly a faithful servant to something, but not to something I could ever admire.

I am glad he is no longer continuing his harm to the living.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

Morbid

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2018, 02:22:08 am »
Billy Graham, 'America's Pastor' And Noted Evangelist, Dead At 99

Billy Graham, America's pastor, has died

Well done, good and faithful servant. Well done.

It's been a little over a week since this has happened and my thoughts/feelings on the matter are still quite a bit muddied.  To say that I'm particularly sad that he's gone would be a falsehood.  But to say that I'm happy about it would not be correct either.  To me, I do and have always taken issue with his opinions on homosexuality, because it effects me most directly and many of my friends.  Taken from the website:
Quote
We believe God’s plan for human sexuality is to be expressed only within the context of marriage, that God created man and woman as unique biological persons made to complete each other. God instituted monogamous marriage between male and female as the foundation of the family and the basic structure of human society. For this reason, we believe that marriage is exclusively the union of one genetic male and one genetic female. Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5-6; Mark 10:6-9; Romans 1:26-27;
1 Corinthians 6:9.
As a gay male, one who is married with kids, you can see how I might could take some concerns with that.  It's hard for anyone to find their place in the World, it's even harder for any who believes and identifies as anything other than straight and cis.  And that's without the above doctrine being preached at every chance.

On the other hand, I can't claim that I'm glad he's gone.  Regardless of the fame, he still had a family who are left to grieve his passing.  In a lot of ways, I know that they are also going through a tough time because of the sharks called reporters.  Regardless of how I feel about the man or his teachings, I know that it's not a pleasant experience to try and mourn someone's passing with media and reporters crowding and attacking you to get their story. 

Ultimately, to thine own self be true. 
For he who has truly lived never truly dies.

ehbowen

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2018, 06:47:02 am »
To me, I do and have always taken issue with his opinions on homosexuality, because it effects me most directly and many of my friends.

My views on the subject, while perhaps not quite as simplistic as others of my brethren, are not welcome on this board. That does not mean that I cannot respect and relate to you and others as friends...but it is with an attitude akin to that of a man whose friend has been diagnosed with lung cancer and emphysema who still continues to smoke four packs a day.

However, I will not be drawn into a debate of the subject in what was intended to be a memorial thread. If someone so wishes, they may open a thread specifically on the topic elsewhere and, if my participation is requested, I will venture to discuss further. For now,

Ultimately, to thine own self be true. 

"I have chosen the way of truth; Your judgments I have laid before me [Psalm 119:30, NKJV]."
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Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

Morbid

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2018, 07:11:09 am »
My views on the subject, while perhaps not quite as simplistic as others of my brethren, are not welcome on this board. That does not mean that I cannot respect and relate to you and others as friends...but it is with an attitude akin to that of a man whose friend has been diagnosed with lung cancer and emphysema who still continues to smoke four packs a day
I'm sorry but unfortunately that opinion places some very serious limitations on any sort of friendship between us.  I can not and will not consider anyone my friend who possesses such opinions.  I teach tolerance, love, and acceptance for all, and that violates that core belief
For he who has truly lived never truly dies.

ehbowen

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2018, 07:33:15 am »
I'm sorry but unfortunately that opinion places some very serious limitations on any sort of friendship between us.  I can not and will not consider anyone my friend who possesses such opinions.  I teach tolerance, love, and acceptance for all, and that violates that core belief

The hatred of evil is no vice.
The tolerance of perversion is no virtue.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2018, 07:40:03 am »
Well done, good and faithful servant. Well done.

My feelings have been going back and forth between 'They have received their reward in full' and 'Lord have mercy'. Sometimes both at the same time, even.
'You created us restless, O Lord, and we find no rest until we rest in You.'
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ehbowen

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2018, 07:45:50 am »
My feelings have been going back and forth between 'They have received their reward in full' and 'Lord have mercy'. Sometimes both at the same time, even.

No argument there. For every Billy Graham, there are thousands if not tens of thousands who have served faithfully out of the limelight and whose eternal reward may dwarf his. Still, it is good to have men of God in this world whom we can look up to. To the best of my knowledge, no hint of scandal whether financial or sexual ever attached itself to Rev. Graham. You may disagree with his theology...many do...but the man himself was, at least IMHO, worthy of great respect.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2018, 12:19:45 pm »
My feelings have been going back and forth between 'They have received their reward in full' and 'Lord have mercy'. Sometimes both at the same time, even.

I always pray for the dead.  Perhaps especially for the devil's sorcerors.  It must be difficult, to have one's whited exterior weighed down by so very many bones.

(Honestly when I think of things like that I have to go all werewolf theology on it.  For the hounds of God will not abandon anything the devil has stolen, including the devil's most popular and enthusiastic servants.)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Jack

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2018, 11:34:07 pm »


I always pray for the dead.  Perhaps especially for the devil's sorcerors.  It must be difficult, to have one's whited exterior weighed down by so very many bones.

Some people I commend sadly to Mara's servants, the maggots, and some... less sadly. He's more the latter.

I think the only reason I don't have stronger feelings about him is my flavor was Catholic, not Evangelical.

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2018, 11:41:49 pm »
The hatred of evil is no vice.
The tolerance of perversion is no virtue.
Well that escalated quickly.

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2018, 05:39:47 pm »
The hatred of evil is no vice.
The tolerance of perversion is no virtue.

Even if true, in the real world exactly what is and isn't evil and what is and isn't perversion is "a matter of opinion" in many cases. Beyond a few obvious things that most humans agree are wrong (like murder) what actions we see as evil or perversion seems to have a lot more to do with one's culture and religion than anything intrinsic to action.
Randall
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Valentine

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2018, 08:54:22 pm »
The hatred of evil is no vice.
The tolerance of perversion is no virtue.

So, you spend all this time around us and, under duress or whatever, hold back on your disgust and contempt enough to say you respect us in spite of our destructive delusions about our basic natures and experiences, and offer friendship. You say often that you're holding back your opinion of how bad we really are in order to get along. That sounds like tolerance to me--it's certainly not acceptance, that's clear. Is it that you're not virtuous, or what?
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

Valentine

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Re: William Franklin Graham, Jr.; 1918-11-07 - 2018-02-21
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2018, 09:00:43 pm »
My views on the subject, while perhaps not quite as simplistic as others of my brethren, are not welcome on this board.

It's not like you don't know what you're doing, though, when you half-say them and hint at them over and over and over? Or that you didn't know what you were doing when you came onto an ostensibly pagan board--albeit one that has a lot of Christians on it--full of LGBTQ people to unambiguously, lovingly memorialize someone who declared everything most of the people on this board stand for as anathema, whether it's the polytheism or the queerness or the magic or the opinions about American empire or the being brown and wanting civil rights. You're not so foolish as to fail to understand that that was a provocation, and you're introspective enough to have thought about it first. You knew there would be pushback. So what were you hoping to gain by it?
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

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