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Author Topic: The Episcopal Church suspended by the Anglican Communion for teachings on SSM &c  (Read 7840 times)

Castus

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http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/world/episcopal-church-suspended/

I'm honestly shocked. The issue of homosexuality and same-sex marriage has threatened to cause a schism in the mainline Anglican community for years now; but I never thought they would have the collective backbone to move against TEC. Bravo to the bishops for standing up for orthodoxy, and refusing to cave to the prevailing fashions of the day. I hope that this act will bring TEC back in line with common consensus.
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“A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, “You are mad; you are not like us.” — St Anthony the Great

Redfaery

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Quote from: Castus;185163
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/world/episcopal-church-suspended/

I'm honestly shocked. The issue of homosexuality and same-sex marriage has threatened to cause a schism in the mainline Anglican community for years now; but I never thought they would have the collective backbone to move against TEC. Bravo to the bishops for standing up for orthodoxy, and refusing to cave to the prevailing fashions of the day. I hope that this act will bring TEC back in line with common consensus.
My family rejoined the Episcopal Church after leaving Catholicism. The priest at the Episcopal Church is openly gay and very popular. The congregation has grown by leaps and bounds. He's one of the few people I've met that exudes...holiness.

I really don't see what the fucking problem is here.
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Quote from: Castus;185163
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/world/episcopal-church-suspended/

I'm honestly shocked. The issue of homosexuality and same-sex marriage has threatened to cause a schism in the mainline Anglican community for years now; but I never thought they would have the collective backbone to move against TEC. Bravo to the bishops for standing up for orthodoxy, and refusing to cave to the prevailing fashions of the day. I hope that this act will bring TEC back in line with common consensus.


"For fellow disciples of Jesus in our church who are gay or lesbian, this will bring more pain," [Episcopal presiding Bishop Michael Curry] said in remarks made available to Episcopal News Service.

"For many who have felt and been rejected by the church because of who they are, for many who have felt and been rejected by families and communities, our church opening itself in love was a sign of hope. And this will add pain on top of pain."
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Castus

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Quote from: Altair;185167
"For fellow disciples of Jesus in our church who are gay or lesbian, this will bring more pain," [Episcopal presiding Bishop Michael Curry] said in remarks made available to Episcopal News Service.

"For many who have felt and been rejected by the church because of who they are, for many who have felt and been rejected by families and communities, our church opening itself in love was a sign of hope. And this will add pain on top of pain."

 
Doubtlessly so, I'm sure. Perhaps this will serve as a reminder to TEC in the future; to not stray so wrecklessly from the established doctrinal consensus...
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

“A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, “You are mad; you are not like us.” — St Anthony the Great

Darkhawk

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Quote from: Redfaery;185164
I really don't see what the fucking problem is here.

 
Serious answer: the places that Christianity is actually growing in population are for the most part places which are deeply and profoundly homophobic (often in part for reasons of colonialised history, this is an interesting overview article), and basically that means that the institutional church in those areas has a lot of power over denominational politics.

Basically, the denominational politics is increasingly run by people who believe in stuff like judicial murder of gay people and the people who want to keep those people happy, for reasons unconnected to matters of QUILTBAG rights.  And that's the devil's bargain that's going to continue for the indefinite future.  (The Episcopalian commentary I've seen has included a fair amount of, "So, are they going to censure the people who are encouraging murder of gay people next?  No?  Welp, can't feel all that bad about not being invited to their parties anymore while that's the way the wind's blowing.")
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Castus

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Quote from: Darkhawk;185170
Serious answer: the places that Christianity is actually growing in population are for the most part places which are deeply and profoundly homophobic (often in part for reasons of colonialised history, this is an interesting overview article), and basically that means that the institutional church in those areas has a lot of power over denominational politics.

Basically, the denominational politics is increasingly run by people who believe in stuff like judicial murder of gay people and the people who want to keep those people happy, for reasons unconnected to matters of QUILTBAG rights.  And that's the devil's bargain that's going to continue for the indefinite future.  (The Episcopalian commentary I've seen has included a fair amount of, "So, are they going to censure the people who are encouraging murder of gay people next?  No?  Welp, can't feel all that bad about not being invited to their parties anymore while that's the way the wind's blowing.")

 
Interestingly enough, an Anglican friend of mine (CofE, not TEC) suggested that this move will possibly lead to a reform in the structure of the Communion; allowing the conservative elements of the wider Church to express their moral objections while still allowing TEC to continue in the life of the Church. I hope personally that both sides can find a better compromise in order to avoid a schism; I don't think TEC is willing to make a stand on the issue, which would conceivably result in harsher sanctions or even being forced wholesale from the Communion.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

“A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, “You are mad; you are not like us.” — St Anthony the Great

RandallS

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Quote from: Castus;185163
I hope that this act will bring TEC back in line with common consensus.

I doubt it will. Most of the Episcopalians I know are not going to reverse their views on gay marriage. I suspect the best folks wanting TEC to reverse its position will get is a schism splitting TEC into two groups, a larger group that accepts gay marriage and a smaller group that doesn't.
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Darkhawk

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Quote from: RandallS;185172
I doubt it will. Most of the Episcopalians I know are not going to reverse their views on gay marriage. I suspect the best folks wanting TEC to reverse its position will get is a schism splitting TEC into two groups, a larger group that accepts gay marriage and a smaller group that doesn't.

 
That split has already happened; the conservative groups have swapped umbrella organisations to others.  Including the Church of Uganda; their North American bishop is John Guernsey.

(Uganda was, according to Wikipedia, chosen because they allow the ordination of women, unlike others of the African churches.  The fact that their Archbishop refrained from taking a position on the infamous law which would have made homosexuality a capital offense made it clear that Western homophobes could make common cause, even if relegating women to second-class status was a bridge too far.)
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Jack

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Quote from: Castus;185163
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/world/episcopal-church-suspended/

I'm honestly shocked. The issue of homosexuality and same-sex marriage has threatened to cause a schism in the mainline Anglican community for years now; but I never thought they would have the collective backbone to move against TEC. Bravo to the bishops for standing up for orthodoxy, and refusing to cave to the prevailing fashions of the day. I hope that this act will bring TEC back in line with common consensus.

 
Pft, whatever. Until they come back to the One True Church and the Holy See, they're just fighting over the details.
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RecycledBenedict

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Quote from: Castus;185163
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/world/episcopal-church-suspended/

I'm honestly shocked. The issue of homosexuality and same-sex marriage has threatened to cause a schism in the mainline Anglican community for years now; but I never thought they would have the collective backbone to move against TEC. Bravo to the bishops for standing up for orthodoxy, and refusing to cave to the prevailing fashions of the day. I hope that this act will bring TEC back in line with common consensus.


I very much wonder what this will mean, and how it will affect, other Anglican churches like Scottish Episcopal Church, Anglican Church of Canada and the Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia, who - if  I am informed correctly - bless civil unions, the Anglican Church of Southern Africa (which share sympathy for the aforementioned churches, and has not taken side with Nigeria), the Anglican Church of Korea and the Japanese Holy Catholic Church (who maintain a don't-ask-don't-tell policy out of Confucian sensibilities, but haven't joined the Nigerian side of the conflict). Together, these churches form a bloc within Anglicanism seldom seen in the newspapers. It's always either the (preposterously named) Episcopal Church or the loudmouthed GAFCON crowd that make it to the news.

Sarah

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Quote from: Castus;185163
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/world/episcopal-church-suspended/

I'm honestly shocked. The issue of homosexuality and same-sex marriage has threatened to cause a schism in the mainline Anglican community for years now; but I never thought they would have the collective backbone to move against TEC. Bravo to the bishops for standing up for orthodoxy, and refusing to cave to the prevailing fashions of the day. I hope that this act will bring TEC back in line with common consensus.

 
I'm sorry you hate LGBT+ people and don't think they have a right to religious community
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Quote from: Jack;185178
Pft, whatever. Until they come back to the One True Church and the Holy See, they're just fighting over the details.

The "One True Church"? You mean that bible church outside of San Antonio that claims only members of its church are real Christians and all others are in error and following false teachings? Or the other church in San Antonio who makes a similar claim?  I have heard that there are more than a handful of such churches in other parts of the US (and probably the world as well). As far as I can tell, many monotheist groups (and surprising some non-montheist groups) make a similar "we are the One True Church" claims -- easy to do as there is no wayu to prove or disprove such claims.

As for the Holy See, I have a nifty card in a drawer around here that says I am a genuine and authorized pope. I know other people who have one too.
Randall
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Castus

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Quote from: Jake_;185186
I'm sorry you hate LGBT+ people and don't think they have a right to religious community

Do I, now? And without my ever having noticed, too. What a feat...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 08:21:41 am by Castus »
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

“A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, “You are mad; you are not like us.” — St Anthony the Great

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Quote from: Castus;185163
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/world/episcopal-church-suspended/

I'm honestly shocked. The issue of homosexuality and same-sex marriage has threatened to cause a schism in the mainline Anglican community for years now; but I never thought they would have the collective backbone to move against TEC. Bravo to the bishops for standing up for orthodoxy, and refusing to cave to the prevailing fashions of the day. I hope that this act will bring TEC back in line with common consensus.

 
Quote from: Castus;185198
Do I, now? And without my ever having noticed, too. What a feat...

 
^ There you go. Wasn't at all hard to find.

When you willfully dismiss peoples' core identities and states of being as merely "fashions of the day"...that's a pretty huge fuck you. Especially when you KNOW you're sharing space with them.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

RecycledBenedict

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Quote from: Allaya;185202
^ There you go. Wasn't at all hard to find.

When you willfully dismiss peoples' core identities and states of being as merely "fashions of the day"...that's a pretty huge fuck you. Especially when you KNOW you're sharing space with them.

I have to defend Castus on this point. It is perfectly possible to view the existence of civil unions and/or same sex civil marriages as desireable reforms, and nurture the hope that most religious denominations will welcome guests and members to most of their religious services regardless of gender or sexual orientation, and still claim that a matrimony constituted by a baptised man and a baptised woman have another symbolic content than a marriage between two persons of the same sex. Atheists and Pagans ought not to dictate how Christians shall perform their rituals.

Speaking from a Reconstructionist Roman perspective, I have no problems, as a man, with the fact that I am forbidden to participate in rites dedicated to Bona Dea on the 3d of December or participate in the celebration of Matronalia the first day of March. Similarly, my participation in Carmentalia at this part of the year and Nonae Capratinae on 5th of July is very restricted, compared to how women celebrate these festivals. I would be very irritated if someone began to dictate how that must change.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 09:57:13 am by RecycledBenedict »

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