collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: SCOTUS Rules Wedding Cake Bakers Can Discriminate  (Read 289 times)

Altair

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • Posts: 2600
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 119
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
SCOTUS Rules Wedding Cake Bakers Can Discriminate
« on: June 04, 2018, 01:39:55 pm »
"The Supreme Court ruled Monday that a Lakewood baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple because of religious beliefs did not violate Colorado's anti-discrimination law."

http://kdvr.com/2018/06/04/supreme-court-sides-with-lakewood-baker-in-same-sex-wedding-cake-case/

The decision was 7-2; Ginsburg and Sotomayor dissented. I haven't had a chance to read the ruling and dissents yet, but my assumption is that if someone's sincerely held religious beliefs hold that interracial marriage contravenes the will of God, they are free to refuse to make a wedding cake for a mixed-race couple...correct?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

RandallS

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 9632
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 72
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: SCOTUS Rules Wedding Cake Bakers Can Discriminate
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2018, 05:12:44 pm »
"The Supreme Court ruled Monday that a Lakewood baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple because of religious beliefs did not violate Colorado's anti-discrimination law."

http://kdvr.com/2018/06/04/supreme-court-sides-with-lakewood-baker-in-same-sex-wedding-cake-case/

The decision was 7-2; Ginsburg and Sotomayor dissented. I haven't had a chance to read the ruling and dissents yet, but my assumption is that if someone's sincerely held religious beliefs hold that interracial marriage contravenes the will of God, they are free to refuse to make a wedding cake for a mixed-race couple...correct?

The side-stepped the main issue: whether a business can discriminate based on religious beliefs and ruled based on the technicalities of Colorado's anti-discrimination law and the way the Colorado Civil Rights Commission decided the case.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host

Valentine

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 935
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 74
    • View Profile
  • Religion: get free; get others free; make new life in the aftermath
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: SCOTUS Rules Wedding Cake Bakers Can Discriminate
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2018, 09:52:52 pm »
The side-stepped the main issue: whether a business can discriminate based on religious beliefs and ruled based on the technicalities of Colorado's anti-discrimination law and the way the Colorado Civil Rights Commission decided the case.

Right, it was a narrow decision and they essentially kicked it back down to lower courts, but it still set precedent, and theocrats around the country are still crowing about their victory.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

Valentine

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 935
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 74
    • View Profile
  • Religion: get free; get others free; make new life in the aftermath
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: SCOTUS Rules Wedding Cake Bakers Can Discriminate
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2018, 09:59:49 pm »
my assumption is that if someone's sincerely held religious beliefs hold that interracial marriage contravenes the will of God, they are free to refuse to make a wedding cake for a mixed-race couple...correct?

Hell, it doesn't even have to be an interracial couple. In theory, you could have the sincerely-held religious belief that people of color are animals and you shouldn't have to interact with them, and be free to kick them out of your store. Or you could just put up some kind of sign, say, so they know not to come in in the first place.

Maybe you have the sincerely-held religious belief that women shouldn't drive, and you shouldn't have to issue one a driver's license.

We've already seen people decide that their sincere religious belief is that trans people shouldn't be alive, and refuse to give them life-saving medical care, so.

Meanwhile, nobody seems to be arguing their religious right not to issue marriage licenses to divorced people, or whatever. For some reason they don't feel the need to legislate for that.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

RandallS

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 9632
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 72
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: SCOTUS Rules Wedding Cake Bakers Can Discriminate
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2018, 08:45:49 am »
Hell, it doesn't even have to be an interracial couple. In theory, you could have the sincerely-held religious belief that people of color are animals and you shouldn't have to interact with them, and be free to kick them out of your store. Or you could just put up some kind of sign, say, so they know not to come in in the first place.

Should SCOTUS ever rule that business people can refuse to serve others due to their sincerely-held religious beliefs, I'm going to urge all my Christian friends (most of whom are NOT conservative -- let alone fundamentalist -- Christians) to refuse to serve those who do not support what Jesus commanded about the poor, the sick, the rich, etc. Don't support health care for everyone regardless of whether they can pay for it, sorry I can't serve you as it would offend Jesus. Don't support fighting global warming, sorry I can't serve you as God told us to be good stewards of the earth. Etc. Somehow, I suspect the conservatives  who are all for allowing "sincerely-held religious beliefs" to allow business to refuse service would be screaming if they were not served due to the religious beliefs of others.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4580
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 301
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: SCOTUS Rules Wedding Cake Bakers Can Discriminate
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2018, 09:05:37 pm »
"The Supreme Court ruled Monday that a Lakewood baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple because of religious beliefs did not violate Colorado's anti-discrimination law."

http://kdvr.com/2018/06/04/supreme-court-sides-with-lakewood-baker-in-same-sex-wedding-cake-case/

The decision was 7-2; Ginsburg and Sotomayor dissented. I haven't had a chance to read the ruling and dissents yet, but my assumption is that if someone's sincerely held religious beliefs hold that interracial marriage contravenes the will of God, they are free to refuse to make a wedding cake for a mixed-race couple...correct?

Most of the reporting I've heard about on this is terrible.  It's a sucky ruling, but primarily for symbolic reasons; my understanding of the decision is "Rule on principles of the law, not on the contents of the beliefs, go back and think about that again and make a decision that is based on legalities rather than feels."

Basically because the board ruling the bakers discriminatory said that their disgusting beliefs were disgusting, that can be taken as having an animus; if they had said that their discriminatory behaviour was discriminatory instead, they would have been okay with this particular ruling.  (Who knows what the Court decision would look like in that other universe, though.)

Popehat, an actual lawyer, a few threads with prime tweets selected (click through to read whole threads for more; they're 4-6 tweets each, ish):




This ruling will, absolutely, embolden people who already are feeling like they have carte blanche to be despicable, which is a pebble we didn't really need in the avalanche at all.  But it's being terribly reported.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Jenett

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 2732
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 278
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: SCOTUS Rules Wedding Cake Bakers Can Discriminate
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2018, 09:41:42 pm »
This ruling will, absolutely, embolden people who already are feeling like they have carte blanche to be despicable, which is a pebble we didn't really need in the avalanche at all.  But it's being terribly reported.

I've seen comments somewhere today that I can't track down at the moment (but was from what I'd consider a reasonably informed source) that there are other cases coming up on the Supreme Court docket that would create better case law, and there's theories they're kicking this back down in order to have those establish case law.
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4580
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 301
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: SCOTUS Rules Wedding Cake Bakers Can Discriminate
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2018, 10:26:53 am »
Most of the reporting I've heard about on this is terrible.  It's a sucky ruling, but primarily for symbolic reasons; my understanding of the decision is "Rule on principles of the law, not on the contents of the beliefs, go back and think about that again and make a decision that is based on legalities rather than feels."

Marc Randazza on the Popehat blog (usually the Popehat twitter is Ken White, and I suspect it was that time, but I may be duplicating input):

"The baker "wins" because technically he "won." But, all he "won" was the right to have the charges brought against him without the administrative panel making snarky comments about his religious beliefs."

https://www.popehat.com/2018/06/05/randazza-masterpiece-cakeshop-a-whole-lotta-nothing/
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4580
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 301
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: SCOTUS Rules Wedding Cake Bakers Can Discriminate
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2018, 10:33:26 am »


Meanwhile the SCOTUS watch blog notes that it is not as narrow as it appears, and may establish interesting standards for further litigation:

http://www.scotusblog.com/2018/06/symposium-masterpiece-cakeshop-not-as-narrow-as-may-first-appear/
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
1156 Views
Last post September 19, 2011, 09:04:42 pm
by SunflowerP
54 Replies
2812 Views
Last post July 09, 2012, 08:53:34 pm
by Skyth
6 Replies
799 Views
Last post August 20, 2012, 11:48:22 am
by NibbleKat
112 Replies
7745 Views
Last post January 23, 2015, 01:33:13 pm
by Redfaery
20 Replies
1049 Views
Last post June 18, 2013, 09:54:51 pm
by sailor

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 36
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru, Tana

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Reserve Staff:
Aisling, Bob, Catja, Fausta, Sperran, Steve

Cauldron Council:
Emma-Eldritch, Everfool, Jubes, Kelly, Koi, Melamphoros, Ocelot, Phouka, Sashapablo, Star

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall