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Author Topic: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion  (Read 5032 times)

Redfaery

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2016, 04:07:43 pm »
Quote from: Castus;184483
Okay. I don't really mind that.
How odd. Just a couple of posts ago, you found it "sick and disturbing."

But hey, whatever.
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Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2016, 04:23:55 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;184485
How odd. Just a couple of posts ago, you found it "sick and disturbing."

But hey, whatever.


No no, not at all. Strange and disturbing were the words I used; substituting 'sick' for 'strange' gives it an entirely new tenor; hitherto absent. And as I said, I support mandated prayer (i.e. prayer in schools, government meetings, etc) with an opt-out provision. Forcing people to pray, which you initially brought up, is something which I would indeed find strange and disturbing; there implicitly being no opt-out function. The second point you made -- that mandated prayer was ipso facto prioritising the rights of believers above nonbelievers -- is entirely separate from forcing people to pray, and is not something I have an issue with.

To make myself entirely clear, so that no future misunderstandings arise re: this particular issue:

-- Prayer in schools, before or after public or government functions, and at similar events, which I referred to as mandated prayer, is not something I oppose.

-- Refusing to allow people who aren't religious or aren't comfortable with the prayers used at such times to opt out is something I oppose.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

Ferrous

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2016, 06:34:46 pm »
Quote from: Castus;184486
No no, not at all. Strange and disturbing were the words I used; substituting 'sick' for 'strange' gives it an entirely new tenor; hitherto absent. And as I said, I support mandated prayer (i.e. prayer in schools, government meetings, etc) with an opt-out provision. Forcing people to pray, which you initially brought up, is something which I would indeed find strange and disturbing; there implicitly being no opt-out function. The second point you made -- that mandated prayer was ipso facto prioritising the rights of believers above nonbelievers -- is entirely separate from forcing people to pray, and is not something I have an issue with.

To make myself entirely clear, so that no future misunderstandings arise re: this particular issue:

-- Prayer in schools, before or after public or government functions, and at similar events, which I referred to as mandated prayer, is not something I oppose.

-- Refusing to allow people who aren't religious or aren't comfortable with the prayers used at such times to opt out is something I oppose.


I think you are undermining the usual definition of "mandated". According to a basic search and the context of this conversation, it should mean "an authoritative command or instruction", or "to make mandatory". The term "mandatory" should mean "obligatory". Therefore, "mandated prayer" should roughly equate to "prayer made obligatory", which seems to contradict what you have written.

One of the important problems with these ambiguities is that they can be used to deceive whoever is being "mandated" in believing one definition (it's not really mandatory because there are opt-out provisions) or the other (it is mandatory and thus there are no opt-out provisions).

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2016, 07:56:24 pm »
Quote from: Altair;184448
"To tell you the truth there is no place for [treating religion and non-religion equally] in our constitutional tradition. Where did that come from?" he said. "To be sure, you can't favor one denomination over another but can't favor religion over non-religion?"

Scalia might be technically correct. However, in order to favor religion over non-religion othe government would have to decide what qualifies as a religion and what does not. As soon as the government starts doing that it is effectively establishing those belief systems it defines as religion and disestablishing those belief systems it does not define as religion -- which is forbidden by the First Amendment. So while the First Amendment may not directly require treating religion and non-religion equally, it effectively prevents the government from actually doing so in an meaningful manner as the government still is not allowed to decide what belief systems are a religion and which aren't.  Remember Atheism has to be a religious belief according to some TV preachers. :)
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Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2016, 08:04:02 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;184511
Scalia might be technically correct. However, in order to favor religion over non-religion othe government would have to decide what qualifies as a religion and what does not. As soon as the government starts doing that it is effectively establishing those belief systems it defines as religion and disestablishing those belief systems it does not define as religion -- which is forbidden by the First Amendment. So while the First Amendment may not directly require treating religion and non-religion equally, it effectively prevents the government from actually doing so in an meaningful manner as the government still is not allowed to decide what belief systems are a religion and which aren't.  Remember Atheism has to be a religious belief according to some TV preachers. :)


The IRS does it all the time.
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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2016, 08:27:26 pm »
Quote from: Castus;184486

-- Prayer in schools, before or after public or government functions, and at similar events, which I referred to as mandated prayer, is not something I oppose.

-- Refusing to allow people who aren't religious or aren't comfortable with the prayers used at such times to opt out is something I oppose.


How generous of you. Fortunately, since about 1962 the Supreme Court has recognized that mandated school prayer--even with "opt-out" provisions--is coercive. A 10-year-old shouldn't be subjected to the group-think of other people's religion, imposed with all the force of teachers and administrators and nearly all their classmates, and be expected to buck the trend.

Whether you and Scalia are happy with that or not.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2016, 10:21:41 pm »
Quote from: Altair;184513
How generous of you. Fortunately, since about 1962 the Supreme Court has recognized that mandated school prayer--even with "opt-out" provisions--is coercive. A 10-year-old shouldn't be subjected to the group-think of other people's religion, imposed with all the force of teachers and administrators and nearly all their classmates, and be expected to buck the trend.

Whether you and Scalia are happy with that or not.

 
Ah well, there's only so many policy battles we can win from our offshore volcano lair.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

Juniperberry

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2016, 11:23:16 pm »
Quote from: Altair;184448
No doubt his personal echo chamber--oops! I mean, Clarence Thomas--agrees.

Scalia Dismisses Concept of Religious Neutrality in Speech


"To tell you the truth there is no place for [treating religion and non-religion equally] in our constitutional tradition. Where did that come from?" he said. "To be sure, you can't favor one denomination over another but can't favor religion over non-religion?"

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SCALIA_RELIGION_SPEECH


From what I understand, Scalia isn't talking about constitutional law, but specifically about constitutional tradition in that no one ever truly separates their beliefs from their ethics 100%, and that it's one thing to expect judges be religiously unbiased (unprejudiced), and another to expect them to be religiously neutral (indifferent).
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 11:25:06 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

sailor

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2016, 02:05:18 am »
Quote from: Castus;184512
The IRS does it all the time.

 
Only sort of.  The IRS is looking at the organizaitonal side, not what people belive. It doens't matter what you believe, just that you follow your own rules and don't steal the money or abuse the financial status.

Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2016, 10:36:14 am »
Quote from: sailor;184540
Only sort of.  The IRS is looking at the organizaitonal side, not what people belive. It doens't matter what you believe, just that you follow your own rules and don't steal the money or abuse the financial status.


Fair point.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2016, 10:52:33 am »
Quote from: Castus;184512
The IRS does it all the time.

 
Castus, I know you're smarter than that.

The IRS determines who has filled out its paperwork properly.  If you think "filling out IRS paperwork" is a religious determiner, I'm sure the Discordians will have you in to celebrate the season of Bureaucracy.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2016, 11:11:49 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;184566
Castus, I know you're smarter than that.

The IRS determines who has filled out its paperwork properly.  If you think "filling out IRS paperwork" is a religious determiner, I'm sure the Discordians will have you in to celebrate the season of Bureaucracy.


It was, admittedly, not my most intelligent post; but at the time it felt reasonable >_>
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

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