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Author Topic: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion  (Read 5031 times)

Altair

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Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« on: January 04, 2016, 10:10:03 am »
No doubt his personal echo chamber--oops! I mean, Clarence Thomas--agrees.

Scalia Dismisses Concept of Religious Neutrality in Speech


"To tell you the truth there is no place for [treating religion and non-religion equally] in our constitutional tradition. Where did that come from?" he said. "To be sure, you can't favor one denomination over another but can't favor religion over non-religion?"

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SCALIA_RELIGION_SPEECH
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2016, 10:40:40 am »
Quote from: Altair;184448
No doubt his personal echo chamber--oops! I mean, Clarence Thomas--agrees.

Scalia Dismisses Concept of Religious Neutrality in Speech


"To tell you the truth there is no place for [treating religion and non-religion equally] in our constitutional tradition. Where did that come from?" he said. "To be sure, you can't favor one denomination over another but can't favor religion over non-religion?"

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SCALIA_RELIGION_SPEECH

 
Zero is a number, you pretentious and self-absorbed twaddlemonger. ARGH!  

(Gawds, does Scalia make me angry sometimes frequently.)
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2016, 10:51:25 am »
Quote from: Altair;184448
No doubt his personal echo chamber--oops! I mean, Clarence Thomas--agrees.

Scalia Dismisses Concept of Religious Neutrality in Speech


"To tell you the truth there is no place for [treating religion and non-religion equally] in our constitutional tradition. Where did that come from?" he said. "To be sure, you can't favor one denomination over another but can't favor religion over non-religion?"

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SCALIA_RELIGION_SPEECH

 
<3 you Scalia.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

Altair

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2016, 10:55:37 am »
Quote from: Castus;184452
<3 you Scalia.


Why on earth would you want to treat non-believers as second-class citizens?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2016, 11:16:36 am »
Quote from: Altair;184455
Why on earth would you want to treat non-believers as second-class citizens?

 
Well, that's not what Scalia said. At all:

"METAIRIE, La. (AP) -- Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia said Saturday the idea of religious neutrality is not grounded in the country's constitutional traditions and that God has been good to the U.S. exactly because Americans honor him.

[...]

"'To tell you the truth there is no place for that in our constitutional tradition. Where did that come from?' he said. 'To be sure, you can't favor one denomination over another but can't favor religion over non-religion?'"

Denying that religious neutrality is part of our constitutional traditions, to the point of asking whether the government could favour religiosity, is not even vaguely the same thing as 'treat[ing] nonbelievers as second-class citizens'. Not that I would mind the government supporting religion, that is. While any established church would be blatantly unconstitutional I think it would be ideal if certain religions were, generally speaking, supported by the state as amenable to the public good.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

Altair

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2016, 11:43:07 am »
Quote from: Castus;184456
Denying that religious neutrality is part of our constitutional traditions, to the point of asking whether the government could favour religiosity, is not even vaguely the same thing as 'treat[ing] nonbelievers as second-class citizens'.


As usual, I disagree with you 100%. This is not some abstract legal lingo game; interpretation of the U.S. Constitution has real, practical effects, and if the Constitution were determined to favor religion over non-religion, then, say, religious-based charities could legally be prioritized for funding over charities that are not run according to any religious principles. The nonbelievers would not be entitled to compete for government dollars on an equal footing with the religionists.

How is that not being treated as a second-class citizen?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2016, 12:32:15 pm »
Quote from: Altair;184457
As usual, I disagree with you 100%.


Some things don't change. ^^

Quote
This is not some abstract legal lingo game; interpretation of the U.S. Constitution has real, practical effects, and if the Constitution were determined to favor religion over non-religion, then, say, religious-based charities could legally be prioritized for funding over charities that are not run according to any religious principles. The nonbelievers would not be entitled to compete for government dollars on an equal footing with the religionists.

How is that not being treated as a second-class citizen?


What you think Scalia said, apparently: the Constitution favours religion over non-religion.

What Scalia actually said, paraphrased: the Constitution forbids the establishment of a state church. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Constitution forbids government support of religion. Not that I'm saying that the government should support religion or anything to that effect, but am rather making a theoretical point to pander to my audience.

Those are not the same thing. At all.  

And I'm really trying to feel like religious charities being prioritised for government funding is a bad thing; but I'm not quite managing it.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

Allaya

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2016, 12:51:09 pm »
Quote from: Castus;184462
And I'm really trying to feel like religious charities being prioritised for government funding is a bad thing; but I'm not quite managing it.

 
As opposed to some other form of prioritization like...oh, I don't know...merit based?

I don't give a flying fuck as to the WHY of the charity. What I care about is the HOW. And that right there is why I have a serious issue with the prioritization of religious-based charities. The HOW often leaves much to be desired.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2016, 01:17:11 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;184465
As opposed to some other form of prioritization like...oh, I don't know...merit based?

I don't give a flying fuck as to the WHY of the charity. What I care about is the HOW. And that right there is why I have a serious issue with the prioritization of religious-based charities. The HOW often leaves much to be desired.


Fair point, albeit not what I think Altair was aiming for in using that example. Maybe if the government forced atheists to sit at the back of buses, we may be getting somewhere.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2016, 02:09:12 pm »
Quote from: Castus;184466
Fair point, albeit not what I think Altair was aiming for in using that example. Maybe if the government forced atheists to sit at the back of buses, we may be getting somewhere.
What if it forced them to pray?
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2016, 03:45:36 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;184468
What if it forced them to pray?


Well, that would be strange and disturbing. And probably unconstitutional.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2016, 03:52:37 pm »
Quote from: Castus;184474
Well, that would be strange and disturbing. And probably unconstitutional.
Well, it's happened. And still happens.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2016, 03:57:57 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;184478
Well, it's happened. And still happens.

...okay?

Not that I oppose prayer in schools or before/during government functions and such, but there ought to be an opt-out option.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

Redfaery

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2016, 04:00:16 pm »
Quote from: Castus;184479
...okay?

Not that I oppose prayer in schools or before/during government functions and such, but there ought to be an opt-out option.
Mandatory prayer is...kind of something that happened when the government decided to privilege the rights of believers over those of non-believers.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Castus

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Re: Scalia: US Should Privilege Religion
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2016, 04:06:35 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;184480
Mandatory prayer is...kind of something that happened when the government decided to privilege the rights of believers over those of non-believers.

 
Okay. I don't really mind that.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

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