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Author Topic: Pope Says Christians Should Apologize to People They Have Marginalized  (Read 6734 times)

Demophon

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This is a few weeks old, but I didn't see another thread about it, so I decided to start one. I thought Pope Francis's statements were encouraging, as the Catholic Church is so deeply steeped in tradition, it is nice to see Christ-like compassion being more of a motivation among Church authorities than preserving tradition and the status quo. It's an uncommon phenomenon, unfortunately.

While it is true that the Catholic Catechism still describes homosexuality as disordered, and women do not have full equality when it comes to being eligible for ordination, I think the fact that a Pope would make statements such as this is an important sign of changing tides in the Church, and maybe they will be more open to discussing these issues in the future. It's a huge deal that a Pope would say something like this, especially regarding homosexuals.

Quote
Catholics and other Christians not only must apologize to the gay community, they must ask forgiveness of God for ways they have discriminated against homosexual persons or fostered hostility toward them, Pope Francis said.

“I think the church not only must say it is sorry to the gay person it has offended, but also to the poor, to exploited women” and anyone whom the church did not defend when it could, he told reporters June 26.

https://cnstopstories.com/2016/06/26/christians-should-apologize-for-helping-to-marginalize-gays-pope-says/

Castus

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Quote from: Demophon;193984
This is a few weeks old, but I didn't see another thread about it, so I decided to start one. I thought Pope Francis's statements were encouraging, as the Catholic Church is so deeply steeped in tradition, it is nice to see Christ-like compassion being more of a motivation among Church authorities than preserving tradition and the status quo. It's an uncommon phenomenon, unfortunately.

While it is true that the Catholic Catechism still describes homosexuality as disordered, and women do not have full equality when it comes to being eligible for ordination, I think the fact that a Pope would make statements such as this is an important sign of changing tides in the Church, and maybe they will be more open to discussing these issues in the future. It's a huge deal that a Pope would say something like this, especially regarding homosexuals.


https://cnstopstories.com/2016/06/26/christians-should-apologize-for-helping-to-marginalize-gays-pope-says/

 
Pope Francis makes me want to vomit. Comments like this undermine the Church's teaching; which is exactly the opposite of what he should be doing.
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Quote from: Demophon;193984
This is a few weeks old, but I didn't see another thread about it, so I decided to start one. I thought Pope Francis's statements were encouraging, as the Catholic Church is so deeply steeped in tradition, it is nice to see Christ-like compassion being more of a motivation among Church authorities than preserving tradition and the status quo. It's an uncommon phenomenon, unfortunately.

While it is true that the Catholic Catechism still describes homosexuality as disordered, and women do not have full equality when it comes to being eligible for ordination, I think the fact that a Pope would make statements such as this is an important sign of changing tides in the Church, and maybe they will be more open to discussing these issues in the future. It's a huge deal that a Pope would say something like this, especially regarding homosexuals.


https://cnstopstories.com/2016/06/26/christians-should-apologize-for-helping-to-marginalize-gays-pope-says/

 
I also saw on Facebook an article stating that he elevated Mary Magdalene's memorial day to a Feast Dayy, on the order of the other Apostles, excepting Peter and Paul. It shows to me, that His Holiness is trying to redress some of the 'sins ' of the Church. Such as Gregory's conflation of Mary Magdalene with the unnamed prostitute.

I would be proud to be a Catholic under Pope Francis' guidance.

Phouka

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Quote from: Castus;193986
Pope Francis makes me want to vomit. Comments like this undermine the Church's teaching; which is exactly the opposite of what he should be doing.

So, Castus, You believe that Catholics should continue to hate, fear, do violence to, disown, mock, hurt, etc., The LGBT communities? That the dogma is more important that Christ's message to love one another as we love ourselves. Or that we should take the splinter out of someone else's eye before we take the beam from our own?

I'd rather live in his Holiness's view of our world. Division has never done any good for anyone except the arms dealers.

Phouka
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 12:06:34 am by Phouka »

Altair

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Quote from: Demophon;193984
This is a few weeks old, but I didn't see another thread about it, so I decided to start one. I thought Pope Francis's statements were encouraging, as the Catholic Church is so deeply steeped in tradition, it is nice to see Christ-like compassion being more of a motivation among Church authorities than preserving tradition and the status quo. It's an uncommon phenomenon, unfortunately.

While it is true that the Catholic Catechism still describes homosexuality as disordered, and women do not have full equality when it comes to being eligible for ordination, I think the fact that a Pope would make statements such as this is an important sign of changing tides in the Church, and maybe they will be more open to discussing these issues in the future. It's a huge deal that a Pope would say something like this, especially regarding homosexuals.


https://cnstopstories.com/2016/06/26/christians-should-apologize-for-helping-to-marginalize-gays-pope-says/


Yawn.

Sorry, I know I'm supposed to be all aglow that some old religion's leader deigns to acknowledge they did us wrong, but since they're *still* doing us wrong--fighting against *civil* marriage (which is none of their business); fighting against anti-discrimination protections for LGBT people, the very same protections that they embrace for their own flock--it has extremely limited value. Deeds, not words.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Jack

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Quote from: Castus;193986
Pope Francis makes me want to vomit. Comments like this undermine the Church's teaching; which is exactly the opposite of what he should be doing.

 
I dunno, I'm in favor of the Church's teaching being more in line with what Christ said, myself... ;P
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Castus

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Quote from: Phouka;193988
So, Castus, You believe that Catholics should continue to hate, fear, do violence to, disown, mock, hurt, etc., The LGBT communities? That the dogma is more important that Christ's message to love one another as we love ourselves. Or that we should take the splinter out of someone else's eye before we take the beam from our own?

I'd rather live in his Holiness's view of our world. Division has never done any good for anyone except the arms dealers.

Phouka


I believe that the doctrine of the Catholic Church should remain as it is; and that Catholics should continue to oppose LGBT advancement because that is what the Church, in light of both Scripture and Sacred Tradition, teaches.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

Darkhawk

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Quote from: Jack;193990
I dunno, I'm in favor of the Church's teaching being more in line with what Christ said, myself... ;P

 
And this isn't even really radical behaviour, like doing something like "consulting with some women before putting out an encyclical about women's lives" might be.

I mean, it's not like Jesus hung out with people who included wo--

Never mind then.
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Skumring

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Quote from: Demophon;193984
This is a few weeks old, but I didn't see another thread about it, so I decided to start one. I thought Pope Francis's statements were encouraging, as the Catholic Church is so deeply steeped in tradition, it is nice to see Christ-like compassion being more of a motivation among Church authorities than preserving tradition and the status quo. It's an uncommon phenomenon, unfortunately.

While it is true that the Catholic Catechism still describes homosexuality as disordered, and women do not have full equality when it comes to being eligible for ordination, I think the fact that a Pope would make statements such as this is an important sign of changing tides in the Church, and maybe they will be more open to discussing these issues in the future. It's a huge deal that a Pope would say something like this, especially regarding homosexuals.


https://cnstopstories.com/2016/06/26/christians-should-apologize-for-helping-to-marginalize-gays-pope-says/

 
So, he wants christians to apologize to the more visible people who've been harmed, directly or indirectly, but not to the rest?

At this point it just seems like the RCC is just mimicking USA politics and becoming an apologist state and apologizing just to the folks who've been obviously and recently maligned as a publicity stunt; similar to the reparation movement in the USA. If they really meant it then they wouldn't encourage christians to do it - they'd lead the way. Maye if they apologized for the Inquisition, the destruction of the Pagan and Heathen beliefs and culture, the encouragement of the massacres in both Africa and the Americas... etc.  Maybe then I'd be a bit less skeptical.
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MadZealot

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Quote from: Phouka;193987
It shows to me, that His Holiness is trying to redress some of the 'sins ' of the Church.

Is this the same Cool Pope who, while on tour in the US, decided Junipero Serra was a saint?  

It is? Ok, then back to this week's episode of "I don't give a shit what the Pope says."
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 02:36:20 am by MadZealot »
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Altair

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Quote from: MadZealot;193997
Is this the same Cool Pope who, while on tour in the US, decided Junipero Serra was a saint?  

It is? Ok, then back to this week's episode of "I don't give a shit what the Pope says."


Yeah, same here.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Altair

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Quote from: Castus;193991
I believe that the doctrine of the Catholic Church should remain as it is; and that Catholics should continue to oppose LGBT advancement because that is what the Church, in light of both Scripture and Sacred Tradition, teaches.


Castus gets it wrong, and it's exactly why I'm unimpressed with this pope: There hasn't been any change in doctrine (nor is there likely to be), and the political activity of the Catholic Church against LGBT rights remains largely unchanged. Castus is upset at the mere appearance of a softening stance--which he's entitled to be if he so chooses--but let's not mistake that for a change of actual substance.

At best, the smiley face instead of a frowny face this pope is putting on the same old anti-gay actions may strip a few of the more aggressive troglodytes of their justification to do violence to LGBT people, and that's something; but beyond that, this latest non-development has as much value to me as an emoji.

Moreover, it reflects the great failure that afflicts Christian sects generally: They think that if they love us, then that makes whatever they do to us OK. (It's for our own good, you see.) They fail to recognize that the primacy of love is particular to *their* religion; that their love is important to *them*, not to me. I don't give a shit whether they love me or hate me--that's their business--as long as I have the same rights as they do. I think this is incredibly difficult for most Christians to grasp.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

RecycledBenedict

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Quote from: Phouka;193987
I also saw on Facebook an article stating that he elevated Mary Magdalene's memorial day to a Feast Dayy, on the order of the other Apostles, excepting Peter and Paul.


The Roman Catholics are not exactly the first ones to take this step. English Anglicans took that step already in the 1920s, beginning with - if I remember correctly - The Oxford Diocesan Service Book, followed by the proposed Book of Common Prayer of 1928 (accepted by Convocations and General Assembly, rejected by the House of Commons, but permitted by the bishops). The English Alternative Service Book 1980 and Common Worship (2000) retain this high level of festivity for St. Mary Magdalene, and in the years surrounding the turn of the millennium, Anglicans in England, Wales and Ireland and Scottish Episcopalians agreed to follow the same calendar of saints for the first time in history (long story). In the Scottish Episcopal Book of Common Prayer of 1929 the exact status of St. Mary Mag's festival day had been slightly vague, but it was at least included. The Canadian Anglicans followed in the steps of the English, and elevated St. Mary Magdalene in 1962. It took the American Episcopalians until 1979 to make the same decision.

Quote from: Phouka;193987
It shows to me, that His Holiness is trying to redress some of the 'sins ' of the Church. Such as Gregory's conflation of Mary Magdalene with the unnamed prostitute.


It is one of the positive things with St. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century, that he, still at that time, argued against that conflation. The conflation didn't become generally accepted in the west until the 15th century, though it was widespread already before that. The Eastern Churches always kept Magdalene, Mary of Bethany and the unnamed prostitute apart.

RecycledBenedict

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Quote from: Skumring;193993
Maye if they apologized for the Inquisition, the destruction of the Pagan and Heathen beliefs and culture, the encouragement of the massacres in both Africa and the Americas... etc.  Maybe then I'd be a bit less skeptical.


Pope John Paul II did that already, decades ago.

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Quote from: Altair;194004
Moreover, it reflects the great failure that afflicts Christian sects generally: They think that if they love us, then that makes whatever they do to us OK. (It's for our own good, you see.) They fail to recognize that the primacy of love is particular to *their* religion; that their love is important to *them*, not to me. I don't give a shit whether they love me or hate me--that's their business--as long as I have the same rights as they do. I think this is incredibly difficult for most Christians to grasp.

 
I think one of the real linchpins of that is the "If you have to explain to people that you're behaving lovingly, you are not very good at expressing love.  If those people's further reaction is not 'Oh, I get it now' but 'Wow, your sense of what love is is so fucked up it's indistinguishable from hatred' you have gone beyond being not good at it into abject incompetence."  (What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow; upon this rests the Law and the Prophets, after all.  Okay, so that's Jewish.  Still.)

I appreciate the current Pope actually paying attention to the poor, which I agree with him is core to the fundamental Christian message as originally presented, but the rest of this stuff is just rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.
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