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Author Topic: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation  (Read 5207 times)

Snowdrop

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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #75 on: July 27, 2013, 12:09:21 am »
Quote from: Riothamus12;116931
Name one ancient culture that actually worshiped the devil. Name one. You've read the legends too no doubt. The Gods lay waste to such abominations.The Norse Gods killed giants, the Tuatha  slew the fomori, Ra battled Apep, and Marduk slew Tiamat. I worship all Gods.

 
. . . But what you're forgetting is that those aren't even equivalent concepts to each other, much less to the modern idea of the Devil.  Take Tiamat --- sure, the Gods kill her, but she's also useful: her body makes the world.  So I don't have any dislike towards Tiamat, because my religion tells me that things should serve creation and be useful.  But a/pep is not useful, and in fact is that which tries to prevent the existence of anything useful.  So I do dislike it.  

And as for the Christian Devil, he's specifically associated with the concept of evil.  [To Christians.  And as a non-Satanist, I'm not going to try to make any statements about how Satanists view him.]  In that sense, I suppose you could equate him with a/pep, but I fail to see how Tiamat and equivalent chaotic/primordial powers have a moral value attached to them.  To some extent, they tend to get killed off, bound, or something similar specifically because they're wild and amoral, not because they represent some sort of conscious personification of evil.  

As for your general point: I don't consider a lot of Satanists pagan.  But that's not really a value judgement.  It's not: I think they suck so they can't be pagans.  (And conversely, lots of people who do suck are pagans.)  I just don't see what would make them pagan (especially if we're talking, say, LaVey here).  But.  I also don't really care if they call themselves pagan, given that it has nothing to do with me.

Chabas

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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2013, 02:34:48 am »
Quote from: Riothamus12;116963
So you don't see the problem with a decadent upper class coupled with jingoism and how that plays into a problem?The materialism that spread from from their imperialist ways was what led to their down fall.

Um yeah, Greeks kind of had to ask dryads before they chopped down trees. The Egyptians didn't exactly pollute the Nile or dam it up. The Romans became an imperialist power and their jingoistic tactics ultimately made them forget. However they were still not as wanton as the cultures that came after. People being jerks and hypocrites is not a period specific thing.

 
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Riothamus,

I see that you are routinely editing your posts. In a fast moving forum such as TC, that is problematic - you'll note that Darkhawk replied to this post before you edited it, which can be disruptive to the flow of conversation, to say the least.

Go back and reread the rules you agreed to when you joined the forum. Editing to do more than correct typos is very clearly not allowed - if you want to add more information, make a new post.

Since this is your second warning for separate issues within a day, I recommend you reread the whole of the rules, so you can avoid a third warning, which would lead to a one week ban.

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Jack

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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2013, 02:40:45 am »
Quote from: Riothamus12;116970
Also is it so wrong that I want someone to ask "Oh what tradition are you?" instead of "Do you worship satan?" if the subject comes up? Is that really such a ridiculous desire?

 
Hilariously, the only time I've actually been accused of being in league with Satan was back in college. These girls down the hall were Campus Crusade for Christ members and they asked me if I knew Jesus. Not wanting a fight, I told them that yes, I was Catholic.

I think I would have gotten off easier if I'd told them I was pagan, honestly.
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MadZealot

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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2013, 04:06:16 am »
Quote from: Jack;116985
I think I would have gotten off easier if I'd told them I was pagan, honestly.


O my Satan yes, you would've.  Uber-protties have a peculiar hate for Catholics.

I was accused of being in league with Satan not that long ago.  For being a libertarian who supports SSM.  Oh well.  Satanists throw the best parties anyway.
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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2013, 08:08:01 am »
Quote from: Riothamus12;116950
Being a non-theist and not concerned with the environment is very counter to that which our paths have in common given how utterly important those things are to all of them.All the way back to the time before Christianity.

There are many Pagan religions (not paths of a single religion) that do not give a damn about what you believe they need to be like. This message board uses the following definition of a Pagan religion:  "A Pagan religion is a religion that is not Jewish, Christian, or Islamic and self-identifies as Pagan." If a religion meets this simple criteria it is a "pagan religion" for the purposes of this board. Note that neither belief in a deity (or deities) nor environmentalism is required. You do not get to tell others what is and is not Pagan (well, you can make such broad statements, but no has to take them seriously nor do discussions here have to conform to them and if you push it too far, it is considered religion bashing which is a violation of forum rules).
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Jack

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Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2013, 11:26:12 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;116995
O my Satan yes, you would've.  Uber-protties have a peculiar hate for Catholics.

I was accused of being in league with Satan not that long ago.  For being a libertarian who supports SSM.  Oh well.  Satanists throw the best parties anyway.

Yeah, I hadn't learned about the eeeeeevils of papism yet.

Of course, they also thought my Poison Elves poster was Satanic. Because... They never really explained why. But I'm sure it was a thoroughly logical and well-reasoned objection. :D
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dionysiandame

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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #81 on: July 27, 2013, 12:24:49 pm »
Quote from: Riothamus12;116925
Oh shut up.People like you aren't helping and those who revere the devil only serve to defame our symbols and deities.


Oh believe me. I'm not looking at the Satanists and Luciferians as the ones "defaming" my religion and gods. I'm leaving that at the people presumptuous, and arrogant, enough to believe they know my faith better than I do, and my gods, better than they know themselves.

Quote

He is not one of ours and I do not consider anyone who prays to the devil pagan.


Activating my give a rat's ass about your considerations module in 5...4...3..oh shit, looks like the module just BSOD'd.

Quote
Our deities frequently laid waste to beings of that nature.


My deities often laid waste to human beings. For a perceived offense or because #reasons. I'm not saying I question my deities decisions or their portrayals in mythology, but I AM saying that I'm not looking at what they laid waste to as much of anything.

Quote
Then there are those morons who actually do revere him just irritate the Christians and make us look bad by trying to associate with us.


Oh please. There are many pagans who got into paganism as a foray into teenaged rebellion. Bashing Christianity and Christians becomes part of that. They either grew out of it or washed out. Some never grew out of it and continue to behave like petulant children the moment they're faced with pagan ideologies that don't fit their narrow worldview.

Frankly, I'd rather have a Satanist or Luciferian who recognizes the diversity of philosophies under the pagan umbrella, than some Blessed Wanna Be thinking they can speak for me and, in lieu of that, silence me.

Quote
I do not worship the devil and I personally want people to know that. I worship old Gods who crush devils.


I don't normally say anything about Lucifer, but I highly doubt he'd want anything to do with you either.


Quote

I also love you deny that spring rites are a part of what we do.


That's easy. Spring rites play NO ROLE in my religious observances what-so-ever. I have festivals in the "winter" and the "summer." Next thing you know you'll be telling me I celebrate Samhain. *eyeroll*
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mandrina

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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2013, 12:55:19 pm »
Quote from: dionysiandame;117043





That's easy. Spring rites play NO ROLE in my religious observances what-so-ever. I have festivals in the "winter" and the "summer." Next thing you know you'll be telling me I celebrate Samhain. *eyeroll*


what, the ancient greeks didn't celebrate Samhain?  

I am so shocked.

sniff.
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Melamphoros

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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2013, 01:00:13 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;117054
what, the ancient greeks didn't celebrate Samhain?  

I am so shocked.

sniff.

 
It gets even more shocking!  There wasn't much (if any) significance placed on the winter solstice!


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Jack

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Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2013, 01:14:17 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;117057
It gets even more shocking!  There wasn't much (if any) significance placed on the winter solstice!

Clearly, then, the ancient Greeks weren't actually pagan. Rio would know!
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MadZealot

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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2013, 04:52:02 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;117057
It gets even more shocking!  There wasn't much (if any) significance placed on the winter solstice!

 
The ancient world was just trying to piss off the Christians.
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RandallS

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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2013, 07:01:02 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;117096
The ancient world was just trying to piss off the Christians.

And they were doing it for (at least) a couple of thousand years before Christ too. They had excellent diviners and oracles, I guess. But keeping everyone to the grind of pissing off future Christians must have been hard on the leaders of ancient cultures.:dwink:
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MattyG

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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #87 on: July 28, 2013, 01:02:52 am »
Quote from: Riothamus12;116931
the Tuatha  slew the fomori

 
Yeah, before you go telling me about my gods, maybe you should do some research. Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken, because I can't really cite anything right now, but as I understand it Balor, one of the most important Fomori, was actually worshiped on Tory Island. Many gods are part Fomori, and don't even get me started on the Fir Bolg.

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Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #88 on: July 28, 2013, 02:54:12 am »
Quote from: MattyG;117135
Yeah, before you go telling me about my gods, maybe you should do some research. Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken, because I can't really cite anything right now, but as I understand it Balor, one of the most important Fomori, was actually worshiped on Tory Island. Many gods are part Fomori, and don't even get me started on the Fir Bolg.

Yep, he was. One of the goddesses I honour is older than the Tuatha and may be Fomorian. Tailtiu, Lugh's foster mother in whose honour some of us are about to celebrate Lughnasadh, was Fir Bolg, not to mention that wicked half-blood Fomorian Lugh himself...

There's no evidence that the ancient Gaels saw the Fomorii as demons. They may have been the forces of wild nature, or simply the gods of a previous tribe. Dualism of good gods and evil demons is Christian... and, from my limited understanding, is one of the things that Satanists are calling attention to and defying.
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Sophia C

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Re: Pentagram: Pagans shed light on their dark reputation
« Reply #89 on: July 28, 2013, 05:47:01 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;117141
Yep, he was. One of the goddesses I honour is older than the Tuatha and may be Fomorian. Tailtiu, Lugh's foster mother in whose honour some of us are about to celebrate Lughnasadh, was Fir Bolg, not to mention that wicked half-blood Fomorian Lugh himself...

There's no evidence that the ancient Gaels saw the Fomorii as demons. They may have been the forces of wild nature, or simply the gods of a previous tribe. Dualism of good gods and evil demons is Christian... and, from my limited understanding, is one of the things that Satanists are calling attention to and defying.

 
I'm too late to edit, but the first paragraph was confusing - sorry... I was talking about two different goddesses. Tailtiu was Fir Bolg. Other gods that Gaelic polytheists honour may have Fomorian roots.
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