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Author Topic: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry  (Read 4377 times)

Darkhawk

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2016, 11:35:22 am »
Quote from: Vixen;200202
Second... Even though I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment I find it very rude.
If this is their view of the world, who are we to disagree?


People with ethics and moral discernment?

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They are not burning gay's or black people at the stake. They just have their own beliefs and wish to follow them.


They are wholly free to have their vile beliefs; that does not obligate anyone to coddle them.
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Jabberwocky

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2016, 11:42:33 am »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;200218
If the couple are upset by the rudness, they need to stop being such delicate little flowers?

 
Further on this, I found Sarah's response.  It's titled "i was just asking a question" which is a beautiful example of passive aggressive missing the point.

A few extracts. Not the stuff about her life story, because I give not a single solitary fuck.

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we chose ireland for a few reasons...dennis is one hundred percent irish and im slightly more than half.


I'm pretty sure you're both American, but moving on.

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planning a wedding is challening. planning a wedding overseas is even more so. all we want is a simple ceremony by the sea, just us and the person marrying us...no frills...




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the message would have been well received, as i was just asking a question...but did i deserve a 'fuck off'? had i been rude in my questioning? nope. just candid, honest, straightforward, and real. so then it goes viral, its all over the internet, and hundreds of thousands of people get to decide what i am based on five sentences asking for information. suddenly, im an evil homophobic racist, a toothless redneck, an embarrassment to americans and odinists alike..


Wah wah wah wah.

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every dollar you spend works as a vote to determine what kind of world we live in.  i choose not to support something i dont believe in by giving money to someone who performs gay marriages. i have every right to spend my money how i deem appropriate. that doesnt make me homophobic


Well, yes it does. And they chose to determine what world we live in by telling whiny bigots to fuck off.

Fuck off Sarah.

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as for the mixed races getting married and not supporting it goes, yes, thats true that in most people's perspectives, that makes me a racist. i have no problem being called a racist.


Yet you whine about it incessently.  At least try and stay internally consistent in your stupidity.

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i was wrong and i made a mistake by identifying as a pagan


For once, Sarah is correct. Although describing it as a singular mistake is an error.

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i am proud that i have the courage to stand up for what i believe in, for my tribe, for the white race. i will fight for my people until my last breath and i will continue to do everything i can do to ensure our survival and secure a future for our children.


And I will show my fight by putting up whiny blog posts!

It's a little known fact that half of the Edda is taken up with the Vikings crying about people being mean to them.

Someone should disrupt their wedding. That'd give them something genuine to whinge about.

(Personally, I'd have been much harsher than the rather moderate response of PFI)
Your heart is a muscle as big as your fist.

Darkhawk

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2016, 12:16:04 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;200220
Well, yes it does. And they chose to determine what world we live in by telling whiny bigots to fuck off.


That's the thing that I don't get: not that people want to hold shitheaded beliefs, but that they simultaneously want to hold shitheaded beliefs and expect other people not to notice and comment accordingly.

These are people who live in such a bubble that they're shocked when someone responds to them like an actual human being.

She sends a group a message saying, "Please coddle my white supremacist, homophobic beliefs" and gets a response that translates out to basically "How dare you think we're scumbags, how about NO".  And this is a shock to her.  She's baffled and offended that other people are affronted by her assumption that they'll go along with her nasty little fantasies.

It's completely beyond her ken that someone might take "You look like you'd be willing to join me in my bigotry" as the horrible insult that it is.  And so she responds with, "But you look like you'd be willing to join me, couldn't you have at least pretended it didn't happen?  Don't we white people have the sort of solidarity that'd let you give me a pass here?  Why did you have to make it public and shine a light on it so I have to run around like a cockroach in the kitchen?"

Because she has no idea how nastily she insulted those people by assuming they'd be okay with what she wanted.  Because she lives in a bubble, a nasty little bubble of people who either share her delusions or are willing to pretend that they aren't a turd in the punchbowl.
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missgraceless

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2016, 01:09:14 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;200220
Further on this, I found Sarah's response.  It's titled "i was just asking a question" which is a beautiful example of passive aggressive missing the point.

A few extracts. Not the stuff about her life story, because I give not a single solitary fuck.



I'm pretty sure you're both American, but moving on.







Wah wah wah wah.



Well, yes it does. And they chose to determine what world we live in by telling whiny bigots to fuck off.

Fuck off Sarah.



Yet you whine about it incessently.  At least try and stay internally consistent in your stupidity.



For once, Sarah is correct. Although describing it as a singular mistake is an error.



And I will show my fight by putting up whiny blog posts!

It's a little known fact that half of the Edda is taken up with the Vikings crying about people being mean to them.

Someone should disrupt their wedding. That'd give them something genuine to whinge about.

(Personally, I'd have been much harsher than the rather moderate response of PFI)

You missed the part about how her "tribe" of white people are endangered. (Bolding mine)

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the breakdown of the traditional family is the issue here. i want to know that i have done everything i can to save the endangered white race, and to me, that means not giving money to someone who performs mixed race marriages. and i have every right to feel this way.

I seriously can't wrap my head around how people can be so bigoted in our day an age. Everything that's going on with Trump and his supporters just baffles me (and makes me incredibly angry, but that's beside the point.)
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"Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly."   ~ Morticia Addams

Beryl

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2016, 05:20:15 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;200222


It's completely beyond her ken that someone might take "You look like you'd be willing to join me in my bigotry" as the horrible insult that it is.  And so she responds with, "But you look like you'd be willing to join me, couldn't you have at least pretended it didn't happen?  Don't we white people have the sort of solidarity that'd let you give me a pass here?  Why did you have to make it public and shine a light on it so I have to run around like a cockroach in the kitchen?"

 
Argh, yes, THANK YOU for articulating this, I was scrabbling around trying to figure out exactly why her original email was not only disgustingly bigoted but also *super incredibly rude* (yes, worse than The Eff Word) but couldn't quite put it into words.

Also A++ fisking of her blogpost by Jabberwocky.

Also, also: my goodness, did she not think to edit it, given at the start she's all "look, I was just being a Nice Fragile White Lady Who Just Didn't Want A [slur-based term for people who don't actively hate gay and black people] Officiating At My Wedding, I don't understand what poor widdle me did dat wos sooo baaaad?" and at the end she's practically frothing at the mouth in her open racist diatribe? Like, yeah, at least try to aim for consistency or something.

Sefiru

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2016, 06:53:32 pm »
Quote from: Vixen;200211
And if people are hurt by their question those people should stop being so darn sensitive about things.


I think the assumption behind this phrase is that the complainer encounters hurtful language about as frequently as the speaker does (ie infrequently). When the truth is that some groups of people have far more hurtful language directed at them than others.

You step on a single Lego once in a while, and say these people should be less sensitive because you think they're also talking about stepping on single Legos once in a while, when actually their whole floors are covered in Legos every day.

(See also: people who dismiss Safe Spaces are probably people who've never been in a space that's unsafe to them.)

Darkhawk

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2016, 08:05:07 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;200249
I think the assumption behind this phrase is that the complainer encounters hurtful language about as frequently as the speaker does (ie infrequently). When the truth is that some groups of people have far more hurtful language directed at them than others.

 
Well, it also assumes that the responders were "hurt" by the question in the first place, as opposed to any of the other options, which include:

- disturbed that someone would expect them to go along with something so egregious
- annoyed at being treated as a bigot referral service
- offended that someone just did the social equivalent of shitting on the table and expecting nobody to comment on the smell

It's all too easy to say "Grow a thicker skin", and it's a great way of dismissing people who never claimed to have been hurt in the first place.  Creates very fertile ground to preserve the sorts of bubble that make it possible to send such a message without having "... maybe I'm committing some kind of terrible faux pas here" cross the mind.
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Jack

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2016, 10:29:52 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;200252
It's all too easy to say "Grow a thicker skin", and it's a great way of dismissing people who never claimed to have been hurt in the first place.  Creates very fertile ground to preserve the sorts of bubble that make it possible to send such a message without having "... maybe I'm committing some kind of terrible faux pas here" cross the mind.

Well and I say "fuck you" to my friends all the time, and sure it's rude, but it's not particularly rude? Like there are things that seem much more rude to me. For example, assuming there are no queer people or POC who might have to field your question in the first place.

I do customer service for a living, but I'd have a hard time pretending I hadn't been asked a rude question if somebody complained how we had too many [insert your favorite slur for queer people] at my organization, and most of the places I work would in fact allow me to hang up on someone using language like that if I asked them to stop. That's also rude, but it's less rude than what precipitated it. Cause and effect is a thing.

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SunflowerP

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2016, 11:07:15 pm »
Quote from: Vixen;200202
It amazes me how close-minded some of the open-minded people can be. Live and let live, people.

 
You assume that those of us who are 'open-minded' are that way about any and everything and for openmindedness's own sake. But that's a faulty assumption - some folks might be, but not all of us are. I don't feel any more need to be 'openminded' or tolerant about bigotry than I do about, say, Young Earth Creationism.

Or as Elliott Mason, who frequents another of my online hangouts, put it, 'I have no need to tolerate behavior that fights AGAINST my primary goal (equal participation in civic life without rudeness or discrimination against traditionally-downtrodden groups).'

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RandallS

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2016, 07:01:06 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;200252
- disturbed that someone would expect them to go along with something so egregious
- annoyed at being treated as a bigot referral service

This is what would have annoyed me if I had been responding to their email as a representative of the Pagan Federation: that they not only seem to expect that we have clergy so bigoted, but that we keep a list of our clergy and their bigotries handy so we can match them with the specific needs of bigots.
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Jabberwocky

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2016, 07:09:45 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;200261
You assume that those of us who are 'open-minded' are that way about any and everything and for openmindedness's own sake. But that's a faulty assumption - some folks might be, but not all of us are. I don't feel any more need to be 'openminded' or tolerant about bigotry than I do about, say, Young Earth Creationism.

 
It also collapses under the weight of its own contradictions.

The "live and let live" people by necessity have to reject any other approach.  It's no less dogmatic then my belief that political violence can be justified.  It just cloaks that dogmatism in the fallacy of moderation.
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Sefiru

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2016, 06:09:11 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;200252
Well, it also assumes that the responders were "hurt" by the question in the first place, as opposed to any of the other options,


Granted, "hurt" was my choice of phrasing; "offended" seems to get used a lot in this sort of dismissive comment as well. Is there a single English word that would cover all of the possibilities?

Alexeigynaix

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2016, 06:44:33 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;200299
Granted, "hurt" was my choice of phrasing; "offended" seems to get used a lot in this sort of dismissive comment as well. Is there a single English word that would cover all of the possibilities?

 
I doubt it.

That said, though? I'm in Hellenion's clergy education program. If someone comes up to me (in a few years, when I'm all credentialed) and says, we'd like you to officiate our wedding, but only if you don't do the same for same-gender couples? You better believe that will be like a knife in my queer heart.

And I should not need to be thick-skinned as a goddamned rhinoceros in order to survive.

Darkhawk

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2016, 07:36:19 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;200299
Granted, "hurt" was my choice of phrasing; "offended" seems to get used a lot in this sort of dismissive comment as well. Is there a single English word that would cover all of the possibilities?

 
Nope.

The closest I can think of is the rather bland "objecting to socially unacceptable behaviour".

But basically as soon as one characterises the emotional state of the person registering the objection, that's... well, Facts Not In Evidence, and that has all kinds of ways that it can go badly.  (I mean, even with people who don't come equipped with a Berserk Button labelled "people made shit up about me and are now arguing with me on the basis of their made-up shit" like I do.)
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Oíche

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Re: Pagan Federation Ireland take a firm stand against bigotry
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2016, 12:12:46 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;200180
They confirmed it on their Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/conaidhm.paganach/posts/1545323679094571?fref=nf&pnref=story

 
Jumping in a bit late here, but it is very real- I know the individual who runs the federation.
The Pagan Federation here is run by two individuals as far as I'm aware. A larger and more active organisation runs pagan events across the country however.

They don't have a list of clergy at the federation, just two people I think (there are quite a few legal pagan clergy here) and they have a zero tolerance approach to those kind of people, as does the Irish pagan community in general from what I have found.
I've yet to meet a pagan here who didn't agree with the response to be honest, while fairly blunt it does reflect the fact that equal marriage is something many of us are proud of. We were the first country to legalize it by popular vote I believe and many of our pagan clergy are LGBT themselves.

Just thought I'd weigh in as someone here who is active in the Irish pagan scene. :)
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