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Author Topic: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions  (Read 3364 times)

Altair

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Re: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2014, 08:35:47 pm »
Quote from: sailor;141843
he's offering a way to dampen the culture war.  



Why would we queer folks in the West want to dampen the culture war? We're winning.
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MadZealot

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Re: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2014, 09:32:52 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;141838
Creating two classes of people, one group that gets to call there union "marriage" and one group that does not get to call it "marriage" when it is the same legal thing is pointless discrimination: something a church can do if it wants to, but something a government should never do.

 
And when government does it they try and disguise it as "separate but equal."  Which, I'm sure we'd agree, is bullshit.  

The "cool" Pope is doing a bit of dancing here.  Seems like he wants to reach out to gay folks but he can't use the M word without moving one of the Church's sacred goalposts.
Now when the latter happens, that will be remarkable.
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

sailor

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Re: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2014, 09:51:56 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;141853
And when government does it they try and disguise it as "separate but equal."  Which, I'm sure we'd agree, is bullshit.  

The "cool" Pope is doing a bit of dancing here.  Seems like he wants to reach out to gay folks but he can't use the M word without moving one of the Church's sacred goalposts.
Now when the latter happens, that will be remarkable.

 
He's the cool Pope which is why he can say such stuff.

Altair

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Re: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2014, 10:19:41 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;141853

Seems like he wants to reach out to gay folks but he can't use the M word without moving one of the Church's sacred goalposts.
Now when the latter happens, that will be remarkable.


I don't even need that to consider change in the Catholic church genuine and remarkable. Let them continue to preach whatever they want on homosexuality and the sanctity of marriage between one man and one woman; I'm not Catholic, so such sentiments are not my problem.

All I need is for their leaders to acknowledge that whatever their religious beliefs on same-sex marriage, government has no place imposing it on others. That would be truly remarkable, helpful for everyone, and would not require them to compromise their beliefs on marriage one iota.

But they seem incapable of that conceptual leap. It would be an unthinkable bow to relativism and would threaten their claim to Absolute Truth. If this pope is taking baby steps towards removing the Catholic church from governmental meddling, then he merits all the hope being invested in him. But I haven't seen any evidence of that to date.
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beith

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Re: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2014, 11:42:43 am »
Quote from: Altair;141861
I don't even need that to consider change in the Catholic church genuine and remarkable. Let them continue to preach whatever they want on homosexuality and the sanctity of marriage between one man and one woman; I'm not Catholic, so such sentiments are not my problem.

All I need is for their leaders to acknowledge that whatever their religious beliefs on same-sex marriage, government has no place imposing it on others. That would be truly remarkable, helpful for everyone, and would not require them to compromise their beliefs on marriage one iota.

But they seem incapable of that conceptual leap. It would be an unthinkable bow to relativism and would threaten their claim to Absolute Truth. If this pope is taking baby steps towards removing the Catholic church from governmental meddling, then he merits all the hope being invested in him. But I haven't seen any evidence of that to date.

 
You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Altair again

Lokadottir

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Re: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2014, 12:03:12 pm »
Quote from: sailor;141686
Well, the Pope is effectively echoing the conservative US Christian line.  Marriage is a religious rite.  Civil unions are a govt thing and would keep gays and lesbians from getting married by the govt.

 
Here's the thing, Catholics will often put abortion and homosexual acts in the same breathe. For the Pope to say that the Church should even TOLERATE the government endorsing homosexual acts is a pretty big deal. It's kind of pathetic going on Catholic forums and watching people trying to explain away his words.

sailor

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Re: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2014, 08:04:42 pm »
Quote from: Lokadottir;141908
Here's the thing, Catholics will often put abortion and homosexual acts in the same breathe. For the Pope to say that the Church should even TOLERATE the government endorsing homosexual acts is a pretty big deal. It's kind of pathetic going on Catholic forums and watching people trying to explain away his words.

 
I guess it helps to read Italian.

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-gives-new-interview-to-secular-newspaper#ixzz2vB4rvRTD

Down near the bottom.  Pope was talking about what Italy calls, in translation, civil marriages.  That's where there is no church ceremony. US equivalent is a marriage performed by a Justice of the Peace, town clerk or similar.  I guess he's not so cool now that there was no mention of acceptance of any sort of same sex relationship in his words.

Although it's my understanding that what he said doesn't preclude it to include SSM.  Hence he's not saying that there should be two kinds of legal status.

Castus

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Re: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2014, 05:35:24 pm »
Quote from: Naomi J;141648
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/05/pope-francis-church-could-support-civil-unions/?hpt=hp_t2

Later on Wednesday, a Vatican spokesman sought to clarify the Pope's remarks.

"The Pope did not choose to enter into debates about the delicate matter of gay civil unions," said the Rev. Thomas Rosica, a consultant to the Vatican press office.

"In his response to the interviewer, he emphasized the natural characteristic of marriage between one man and one woman, and on the other hand, he also spoke about the obligation of the state to fulfill its responsibilities towards its citizens."

"We should not try to read more into the Pope’s words than what has been stated in very general terms," Rosica added.


Heh, CNN, you had me going for a moment.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 09:20:15 pm by SunflowerP »

Lokadottir

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Re: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2014, 08:40:47 am »
Quote from: sailor;141938
I guess it helps to read Italian.

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-gives-new-interview-to-secular-newspaper#ixzz2vB4rvRTD

Down near the bottom.  Pope was talking about what Italy calls, in translation, civil marriages.  That's where there is no church ceremony. US equivalent is a marriage performed by a Justice of the Peace, town clerk or similar.  I guess he's not so cool now that there was no mention of acceptance of any sort of same sex relationship in his words.

Although it's my understanding that what he said doesn't preclude it to include SSM.  Hence he's not saying that there should be two kinds of legal status.

 
I'm just saying plenty of Catholics in the US are doing everything to make civil same-sex marriages illegal. It's still a huge deal that he said this. I almost wish I still had theology class so I could see the fundies squirm. :p

Rhoanna

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Re: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2014, 12:02:52 pm »
Quote from: Lokadottir;142089
I'm just saying plenty of Catholics in the US are doing everything to make civil same-sex marriages illegal. It's still a huge deal that he said this. I almost wish I still had theology class so I could see the fundies squirm. :p


I'm not sure it's such a huge deal. The majority of American Catholics already support same-sex marriage. (I don't know about other countries, other than it varies wildly.) And his comments don't seem definitive enough to change the position of the bishops, nor do they seem likely to sway other conservative Catholics.

beith

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Re: Pope suggests Roman Catholic church could support civil unions
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2014, 01:01:03 pm »
Quote from: Lokadottir;142089
I almost wish I still had theology class so I could see the fundies squirm. :p

 
A bit off topic, but this reminded me of some of my classes in college.  I went to a Lutheran school, and we had a bunch of conservative (LCMS if that matters) Lutherans in some of my religious courses and one atheist who was not afraid to speak her mind.  Class tended to devolve any time she stated an opinion.

Sometimes her views made me uncomfortable, being quite Christian myself at the time, but she had as much right to contribute to the discussion as everyone else and didn't deserve to be attacked the way she was whenever she voiced them.

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