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Author Topic: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message  (Read 6963 times)

MadZealot

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2017, 07:14:35 pm »

If it becomes necessary in the future to protect the custody of my child or for health insurance reasons I will marry my SO, but begrudgingly. I rather like knowing he chooses to be with me rather than his being forced to and/or stuck. And considering we've both been married and divorced already (which, apparently, is permissible due to the hardness of hearts), I don't see the point. If he dies, he's leaving me the house. If I die, I'm making sure that he has at least a shot of custody with my son. If either of us loses our jobs, we will get married so that we can get health insurance. This is why many people want to get married. There are legal benefits. If you don't want secular society to co opt your religion's terms and traditions, make sure that church and state are separate.


This is why I'm a proponent of, ahem, divorcing State "marriage" from cultural wedding rites. 
To the State, marriage is business. (Which is why restricting to heterosex couples makes no sense, even without arguing for equal protection under the law.) If you want a binding civil contract- and yes, there are benefits- go to the State. If you want a wedding, if you want to become one flesh in the eyes of the Lord, well... go to church. Gawwd ain't in the courtroom.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Darkhawk

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2017, 07:19:02 pm »
That assumes the sexual relationship was 100% consensual. If the 'beloved servant' really happened to be a sex slave, there's a master/slave power dynamic that couldn't be ignored, and 'consent' was likely obtained by force.

Jesus, not being an idiot, might've understood that, and was therefore simply ministering to a rape victim.

While praising the faith of the rapist (and ranking representative of the repressive regime that he was actively opposed to, to the point that it later killed him) and making no comment about his abusive behaviour?  Not even a "go and sin no more" about it?
as the water grinds the stone
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as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

MadZealot

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2017, 07:21:40 pm »
Doesn't seem to be. Otherwise every hospital administrator and pharmaceutical executive in this country would be doing fifty years to life for antitrust violations.

Red herring.

Quote
No, it's not. The First Amendment is there to keep government out of the churches, not churches out of the government.

What happens when the Church in charge isn't yours? 
If it were, say, Mormons or Muslims, there'd be a diff'rent refrain.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

MadZealot

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2017, 07:23:27 pm »
What do you think establishment of religion is, and why do you think yours should get to do it?

Beat me to it.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

MadZealot

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2017, 07:24:52 pm »
I'll see your SCOTUS and raise you the Most High.

We are not a theocracy. Thank God.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

MadZealot

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2017, 07:26:26 pm »
Questions of right and wrong are not subject to the whim of the majority.

We live in a country which votes. So, yes, we make those decisions.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

MadZealot

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2017, 07:33:10 pm »
While praising the faith of the rapist (and ranking representative of the repressive regime that he was actively opposed to, to the point that it later killed him) and making no comment about his abusive behaviour?  Not even a "go and sin no more" about it?

I'm thinking calling out a centurion on anything would likely have gotten him killed.
Along that line of thinking, there's the argument that Jesus said that 'Render unto Caesar' bit because somebody was trying to bait him into seditious speech. [And I happen to interpret that bit as him being a bit of a smartass.]
Smart guy, that Jeebus.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2017, 08:00:52 pm »
Smart guy, that Jeebus.

Really smart.  So much of his stuff was ancient civil disobedience.

Like there was a law on the books that let someone sue you for your coat, or something like that, and he said 'give your shirt too' and thus use public nudity as a rebuke to the person using legal power to be financially coercive.

Or the law that let a Roman soldier demand random civilians carry his shit for a mile, but he couldn't have them carry it more than that or he would get in trouble - so the whole 'if someone asks you to carry it for a mile, carry it for two'.

"Turn the other cheek" has been interpreted as "if you get backhanded by an asshole in power, demand they slap you the other way, treating you as an equal".

There's some really juicy stuff in there.  I used to know more of them.

I'm pretty sure that if Jesus had wanted to condemn a presumed abusive same-sex sexual relationship, he could have come up with something.  His entire ministry was full of coming up with ways of sassing the Romans.  It's not like it's a weird situation he wouldn't have had reason to think about.  (He didn't even try to turn the guy away as being not-of-Israel like he did the Canaanite woman with the demon-possessed daughter - he totally thought in advance about what it would mean if someone from the power structure he was opposing tried to interact with him.)

And oh, I learned in church a few months ago that the whole procession on a donkey thing at the Passover time was a deliberate mockery of Pilate's entry to the city with grand pomp from the other direction.  Jesus the cranky satirist kicks ass and turns over moneylender tables in the Temple before chasing everyone out with a flogger.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

MadZealot

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2017, 08:12:28 pm »
I'm pretty sure that if Jesus had wanted to condemn a presumed abusive same-sex sexual relationship, he could have come up with something.
So, since he failed to sass any Romans at the time, do we assume he tacitly approved a presumed consensual relationship (that in no way held a master/slave power dynamic whatsoever)? Does silence mean approval and/or consent?
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Darkhawk

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2017, 09:08:15 pm »
So, since he failed to sass any Romans at the time, do we assume he tacitly approved a presumed consensual relationship (that in no way held a master/slave power dynamic whatsoever)? Does silence mean approval and/or consent?

I have a variety of suspicions for possibilities, any or all of which may be accurate, which include (off the top of my current head):

- a sexually exploitative relationship between someone with power and someone without may well have been culturally normal for the time and place in many different forms, and this one did not register as outside of that normal range to be worth commenting upon (again, with reference to local cultural norms)

- the centurion's distress was honest and genuine enough that, regardless of the position of empire in the situation (and there is no extracting the position of empire in any part of the situation, including that relationship) his caring for the other party was clearly important and worthy of respect

(- on that topic, it is actually curious to me that Jesus is not reported to have explicitly commented on the position of the empire in the dynamic, though he was often rather oblique; I do read his comment on the centurion's faith as poking at that, but primarily in the sense of a Roman power humbling himself before one of the people it was his job to oppress for the sake of, well, someone else he was likely oppressing.  There's some really interesting analysis to be had there for someone who wants to unravel that skein, the whole story as presented is fascinating viewed through a historical context lens.)

- a ministry dedicated to the poor and oppressed, opposition to the empire, and restoration of certain Torah principles was not inclined to waste time and cycles on stuff like sexuality which was not actually important to the process of jubilee and civil disobedience

- Jesus may not have considered it appropriate to bring up Torah legalism to a gentile who actively had no reason to give a shit about it, assuming he cared about those rules at all, for which we only have absence of evidence

(On the topic of those last two points, by the way: the arguments in early Christianity were heavily about the inclusion of gentiles and whether or not gentile converts would also have to become Jewish.  They orbited around food and circumcision.  Obviously, this was not Jesus's bag, but it was the concern of his immediate followers after the crucifixion.  Peter's vision is superficially about food, but is immediately followed by him realising that the food was also a metaphor for the acceptance of other human beings.  The Romans-derived sexuality clobber texts are part of an argument that turns around to excoriate the Jewish community that is making judgements about the comparatively trivial concern of sexual habits in order to make a broader point about a matter of actual major dispute: keeping kosher.

Thus, to the extent that one can use early Christians to judge the level of concern Jesus had about topics, their concerns were all pretty Hufflepuff.  Proper food and inclusion.  Being fair.  That sort of thing.

My favorite Pauline quote is Romans 14:14.  "I believe in the lord Jesus that no thing is unclean of itself, but it is unclean for he who thinks it unclean."  (From memory, and of course in translation; I had the actual Greek text on my Livejournal header for a while, though.)  Relatedly, of course, is the bit of Acts 10, which I had to Google:  "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean."  Arguments rooted in uncleanness of people are a hard sell for me as Christianity, obvs. ;) )

Um.  More parenthetical than point.  Whoops!
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2017, 09:58:07 pm »
Really smart.  So much of his stuff was ancient civil disobedience.


Although I do think that it's quite likely that partly stemmed from a belief that the Kingdom of Heaven was coming sooner rather than later.  That kind of apocalyptic belief tends to lead to one of two extremes; quietism or all out war with the state.
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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2017, 02:23:18 pm »
I'll see your SCOTUS and raise you the Most High.

Unfortunately, for this position, exactly who the "Most High" is seems to depend on the person talking about the "Most High". This is even more true of the opinions of the "Most High". Many conservative Christians seem to want their interpretation of Biblical law made the law of the land and can't seem to understand why those who disagree with either their opinion of who the "Most High" is or their opinion of what the "Most High" wants will not allow this without a fight. Yet most of these same conservative Christians seem horrified at the idea that Sharia law might be imposed on them by people who believe that that is the will of the "Most High" are state they would fight any attempt to do so.  I'll ignore the obvious hypocrisy there and just state that given most people don't want the religious laws of other religions imposed on them (no matter how absolutely the followers of those religions believe them to be required), it seems to me that the best option is to leave religious laws out of the legal code and leave them to be followed by those who choose to believe in a particular version of the "Most High" and belief those laws are what their version of the "Most High" wants them to follow.

With respect to gay marriage, as long as the law doesn't force you to marry someone of your own sex or force you to bless their marriage in your place of worship, I can't see that allowing gay marriage has any effect on your right to follow the religion of your choice. It just prevents you from imposing your religious beliefs on those who do not hold them.
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Darkhawk

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2017, 08:25:01 pm »
Although I do think that it's quite likely that partly stemmed from a belief that the Kingdom of Heaven was coming sooner rather than later.  That kind of apocalyptic belief tends to lead to one of two extremes; quietism or all out war with the state.

Well, I'm a preterist to the extent that I care; Jesus predicted the end of the world and it happened.  "If you keep on dealing with Rome like this y'all are going to get your asses catastrophically kicked" was one of his messages, in the style of a traditional prophet, and lo, the ass-kicking proceeded as predicted.  World as it was known in Jerusalem in 30 CE ended.  Boom.

(Meanwhile, I was reminded earlier today that the King James Bible, beloved of certain forms of conservative US Christian, was commissioned as a sop to the Church because they were being a royal pain in the ass to King James, who was way too public about his boyfriend for their tastes.  Check your irony meters, everyone, 'cos that's a good'n.)
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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2017, 03:26:36 pm »
A coalition of evangelical leaders signed a 'Christian manifesto' on human sexuality
https://www.circa.com/story/2017/08/29/nation/nashville-statement-a-coalition-of-evangelical-leaders-signed-a-christian-manifesto-on-human-sexuality
So, I was thinking a bit more about the Declaration in the specific context of the ongoing events when it was released, and I must say that I am confused as to why it was (a. necessary and (b. necessary right now. I won't dispute that it is impressive in and of itself. The list of initial signatories is very significant in that it is an unprecedented gathering of leaders from across the Evangelical theological spectrum -- including respectable luminaries such as Russell Moore, John Piper, and R. C. Sproul -- but as I've said previously it's nothing new. I don't think anyone who actually gives a damn about the Nashville Declaration expected any other position to begin with.

Furthermore, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to release that statement two years after our final crushing defeat in the culture wars. Literally the only thing it does is give Evangelical Christians -- and conservative Christians in general -- a reason to feel smug and, in turn, give liberals an excuse to either pitch a fit or hoot and holler at their seeming impotence. Probably the most pressing issue that needs to be addressed in a post-Obergefell world (at least from a conservative perspective) is the rise and near-complete normalisation of transsexuality; and the destructive force of relativism which it embodies. Especially in light of the recent surge in leftism and violent expressions of liberalism it would have been wiser to issue a statement upholding the righteousness of the Trump directive re: transsexual soldiers; and especially condemning the concept of 'gender fluidity' which has also been gaining ground. Not only would it have been more timely but it just makes more sense.

I'm also increasingly irritated by the fact that it was not written more openly to include churches with apostolic succession, but that's just a side note. As it is written there are some problems from a Catholic (or Orthodox, Continuing Anglican, etc) viewpoint -- Br Andre-Marie MICM from the St Benedict Center writes more about that if one is interested as to why Bigots X disagree with Bigots Y -- but strong ecumenical support of tradition is always nice to see more of.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

Darkhawk

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Re: New Declaration, Same Old Anti-Gay Message
« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2017, 04:18:51 pm »
the rise and near-complete normalisation of transsexuality

Yeah, tell that to any of the trans murder victims.

Oh.  Wait.  You can't.
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