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Author Topic: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'  (Read 2128 times)

Skyth

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Re: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2012, 01:41:21 am »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;83842
"Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next."

 
A just god wouldn't put them in this situation to begin with.  I guess I just don't undestand how people can ignore just how cruel and evil the god that they worship is...and claim they worship a god of love and goodness...

Naomi J

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LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2012, 03:22:47 am »
Quote from: Valentine;83814
I mean, for me--and I don't see my sexuality or gender as having been a matter of choice--I find the "born this way" argument worrisome mostly because it often strays into the territory of "If I could have chosen to be anything else, I would" which strays into the assumption that being queer or trans is a bad awful thing that nobody would choose to be if they weren't forced.  It's rhetorically useful, as an argument, but in the end too often relies on the assumption that if there were a choice, we'd never--no sensible person would ever--choose to be as we are.
It's a stepping stone, at best.

This is exactly how I feel about this argument. I feel like it has connotations of 'I don't want to be this way really and I'd be straight (or cisgendered, etc) if I could be'. No. I'm bi, for a start, and I did choose to be with a woman - in the sense that I fell in love with SJ. (And she's genderqueer, so I increasingly wonder about the binaries of it all anyway... I fell in love with a person.) I used to be involved in the LGBT Christian movement, and they were very keen on the 'born this way' approach. I understand why - they were dealing with a lot of arguments about it being a sin - but it left me, as a bi person, a bit undermined. On several occasions other members of the movement asked me why I didn't just choose to be with a man. I don't think they meant I was a sinner - I think they meant that it's so difficult to be a gay Christian, why put yourself in a situation that's so hard? - but it was still fairly offensive. The message I took from it was the same: I'm deviant.

This gets even more complicated with disability pride. People get deeply angry and offended with me if I say that I wouldn't change who I am on that side of things. But I wouldn't. I'd prefer not to have chronic pain (and some other things) but I'm proud of who I am, in totality. (I'm actually scared to post this, given how strong the responses I get to that statement usually are... But hey ho.)
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Re: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2012, 06:10:04 am »
Quote from: Melamphoros;83783
But it's still a sin to act on it...



Full Article


3 reactions:

1) It's a step in the right direction. A baby step, but a step. Though--call me embittered--I think this is mostly PR. Mormon leaders know their religion is a little-understood, distrusted minority sect in this country; in such a precarious position, to have another minority (us queers) paint a big red target on them in the wake of Prop 8 freaked them the hell out, and they've been trying to get that target off their backs ever since. (Moroni forbid that people should boycott Marriott--like I do--and the $ should stop flowing. No, can't have that.)

2) Yawn. The "orientation is innate, but acting on it is the sin" formulation is old as the hills; it may not even represent a change from previous Mormon doctrine, though someone more familiar with their dictates should chime in on that. Catholic church leaders have been preaching that for decades; it hasn't stopped them from opposing every single advance in LGBT civil rights and spending about $2 MILLION in the last election cycle fighting marriage equality.

http://hrc.org/nomexposed/section/the-catholic-hierarchys-devotion-to-fighting-marriage-equality

Which brings me to my main reaction...

3) I don't give a shit. They can preach that we're innocence-corrupting demonspawn who could choose tomorrow to be heterosexual, for all I care. Their beliefs are their own, and their approval, their love, is neither desired nor required. All I need is the same rights as they have. Anything else is their problem.

I'm sure this is important to gay Mormons; it may mean some Mormon teen isn't thrown out onto the street by his own family for coming out, so that's something. But frankly, I think an LGBT person who sticks with *any* religion that doesn't honor their best, true selves and their relationships is a goddamn fool. You have a hundred other options out there. You don't need them; they need *you*, in their pews, filling their coffers. Which this latest desperate attempt to keep their clutches on you, while sticking to their bigoted edicts, makes abundantly clear.
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The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

HeartShadow

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Re: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2012, 06:53:04 am »
Quote from: Valentine;83832


 
Thank you VERY much for explaining that to me - I want to be a GOOD ally, and I didn't see the problems in the argument.  Though of course, once pointed out ......

I've always seen it more as hair color or eye color - a fact about your existence, not something that needs explaining.  I forget how much I'm a product of liberal middle-class America with all the lenses that go along with that. :ashamed:

Melamphoros

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Re: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2012, 07:58:23 am »
Quote from: Altair;83863
3 reactions:

 
I agree with your reactions, particularly the first.  I don't think this will change much and is probably a PR move.  I can't say if this would change the anyone's perception of the Mormon Church.  Personally, their previous (and ongoing) stance on LGBT folks and the LGBT Rights Movement is just the tip of the iceberg of why I dislike them.


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Sage

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Re: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2012, 08:26:51 am »
Quote from: Sophia Catherine;83857
This is exactly how I feel about this argument. I feel like it has connotations of 'I don't want to be this way really and I'd be straight (or cisgendered, etc) if I could be'.

 
That's a strange thing for me to understand, since I've mostly seen it as celebratory and defiant. "Stop trying to tell me how to live my life, since I was born this way and this way is awesome." Though, granted, I don't live in an area where positive LGBT messages are really talked about publicly and I make a point to avoid bad conversations about queerness, both irl and online.
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Faemon

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Re: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2012, 12:20:36 pm »
Quote from: Sage;83874
That's a strange thing for me to understand, since I've mostly seen it as celebratory and defiant. "Stop trying to tell me how to live my life, since I was born this way and this way is awesome."
Just because that's the way you understand and experience it, doesn't mean that that's the only way it can ever be understood or experienced. Or that any other interpretation is necessarily a threat to or sabotage of that celebratory defiance. (Or that a conversation about queerness that evokes that argument can never ever be a bad one, for all the reasons articulated by Valentine and Sophia Catherine.)
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Owl

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Re: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2012, 02:21:54 pm »
Quote from: Altair;83863



3) I don't give a shit. They can preach that we're innocence-corrupting demonspawn who could choose tomorrow to be heterosexual, for all I care. Their beliefs are their own, and their approval, their love, is neither desired nor required. All I need is the same rights as they have. Anything else is their problem.



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Valentine

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Re: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2012, 02:38:12 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;83866
Thank you VERY much for explaining that to me - I want to be a GOOD ally, and I didn't see the problems in the argument.  Though of course, once pointed out ......

I've always seen it more as hair color or eye color - a fact about your existence, not something that needs explaining.  I forget how much I'm a product of liberal middle-class America with all the lenses that go along with that. :ashamed:

 
I mean, of course!  You're a decent human being, you know?  Why would it occur to you to consider the most awful possible interpretations of those things if you hadn't been exposed to them?

I come from...somewhere less nice than a lot of people, which I often forget as a factor, and I've had to see a lot of angles on these things to get by.  I'd love for more of us to live in a milieu like yours--where we don't need to explain basic facts of our existence.

Like I said, I do think there's value--and defiance--in "born this way" arguments, and I've used them, too.  I've just had to learn their limitations the hard way.
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Flame

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Re: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2013, 06:22:31 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;83869
I agree with your reactions, particularly the first.  I don't think this will change much and is probably a PR move.  I can't say if this would change the anyone's perception of the Mormon Church.  Personally, their previous (and ongoing) stance on LGBT folks and the LGBT Rights Movement is just the tip of the iceberg of why I dislike them.

 
It's entirely a PR move. I'm an ex-mormon. I grew up in this church.  I have lots of reasons to dislike this sexist, homophobic, racist (they still are in some ways) church.

yewberry

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Re: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2013, 08:41:54 pm »
Quote from: Flame;89411
It's entirely a PR move. I'm an ex-mormon. I grew up in this church.  I have lots of reasons to dislike this sexist, homophobic, racist (they still are in some ways) church.

I realize it's probably a totally callow PR thing, but I'm kind of amazed at how fast the LDS appear to be evolving.

I'm probably completely wrong, by the way...wrongness for which there's some precedent.

Brina
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 08:43:04 pm by yewberry »

FollowerofOdin

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Re: LDS Church: "'Sexuality is not a choice'
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2013, 07:07:48 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;83783
But it's still a sin to act on it...



Full Article

I just fried my braincells with this article.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 07:09:30 pm by FollowerofOdin »

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