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Author Topic: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine  (Read 8507 times)

RandallS

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2015, 10:06:43 pm »
Quote from: Kaio;169226
Originally Christianism and Islam are nothing but Jewish heresies.

And Judaism was a "heresy" to the religion(s) it grew out of. Just because a religion grew out of another does not mean those later religions can't add features (like a command from God to convert people) than the earlier religion did not have.
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Kaio

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2015, 10:47:44 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;169146
(...)

I agree, Islamic extremism is a problem. But you know what is also a problem, and what no one ever seems to want to deal with, especially here in the US? Christian extremists. The ones who bomb abortion clinics, burn crosses, and stockpile guns and ammunition because they think the government is the Antichrist.


 What Muslims did to Africa is only paired with what Europeans did. But Islamic slave trade started much earlier and lasted much longer. Boko Haram is a consequence of historical Islamic proselytism.
 In Brazil Christian fundamentalists, mostly the Pentecostal and Neo-Pentecostal Christian churches, are a problem too. Usually they emphasize the Old Testament and are extremely conservative, being strongly present in politics. These churches demonize mainly Afro-Brazilian religions (and every non-Abrahamic religion), but also other Christian religions; it's not uncommon different churches demonize each other too. There are records of destruction of Umbanda and Candombl√© temples by Christians in some states. In 2014 their most powerful priests earned about U$ 7.523.606.000; the majority of these Christians is composed of semiliterate and poor people. Angola had a good reason to prohibit Brazilian Christian churches from acting there; their priests/missionaries were driven away.
 
Quote from: sailor;169233
While Islam drew heavily upon Jewish scripture, it was never a heresy of Judaism.


 Muslims think Muhammad is a reformer of the religion of Abraham, Moses and Jesus.  I think this makes Islam a Jewish heresy.
 
Quote from: RandallS;169248
And Judaism was a "heresy" to the religion(s) it grew out of.

 
 It's not the same thing. While this may be true from an outsider's viewpoint, or even "objectively" true, what matters is the viewpoint of the Jews themselves, though. And it seems they think otherwise at least historically. OTOH Christians and Muslims are aware of their tie with Judaism.
When in Rome do as the Romans do. (Ambrose)

Darkhawk

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2015, 11:35:26 am »
Quote from: Kaio;169257
Muslims think Muhammad is a reformer of the religion of Abraham, Moses and Jesus.  I think this makes Islam a Jewish heresy.

 
So what's your citation for Muhammad ever having been Jewish, which would of course be required for him to be a Jewish heretic?
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Kaio

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2015, 12:47:40 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;169258
So what's your citation for Muhammad ever having been Jewish, which would of course be required for him to be a Jewish heretic?


 According to whom or from what viewpoint is he having been Jewish or not a requirement for being a Jewish heretic? If he put himself in the religious tradition of Abraham, Moses and Jesus and if he is regarded as pertaining to the said religious tradition by his followers, I can't see why his religion can't be thought of as a heresy from the Jewish religion.
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Sage

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2015, 12:55:42 pm »
Quote from: Kaio;169261
According to whom or from what viewpoint is he having been Jewish or not a requirement for being a Jewish heretic? If he put himself in the religious tradition of Abraham, Moses and Jesus and if he is regarded as pertaining to the said religious tradition by his followers, I can't see why his religion can't be thought of as a heresy from the Jewish religion.

 
If you're not a member of a religion I'm really confused as to how you can be a heretic of that religion.

Also, do you want to provide sources before you start making sweeping comments about Judaism's history and theology?
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Tom

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2015, 12:56:55 pm »
Quote from: Kaio;169261
According to whom or from what viewpoint is he having been Jewish or not a requirement for being a Jewish heretic? If he put himself in the religious tradition of Abraham, Moses and Jesus and if he is regarded as pertaining to the said religious tradition by his followers, I can't see why his religion can't be thought of as a heresy from the Jewish religion.
Islam grew from a combination of the native polytheist religion of the Arabic people and influences from having interacted with the Jewish and Christian communties at that time. If Islam was a hersey of /anything/ it would have been of that native polytheist religion. Which incidentally was one of the reasons Muhammad first left Mecca for Medina, if I remember correctly.

Kaio

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2015, 01:58:19 pm »
Quote from: Sage;169263
If you're not a member of a religion I'm really confused as to how you can be a heretic of that religion.


 I think it's not about you or me; I think it's about Islam. And I can't help but conclude its core is a reformed Judaism.

Quote from: Sage;169263
Also, do you want to provide sources before you start making sweeping comments about Judaism's history and theology?


 I was talking about Islam.
 How about Quran? It states that Abraham was not a Jew, but a Muslim; that Jacob and his offspring were Muslims; and that Moses and Jesus were Muslims too.
 
Quote from: Tom;169264
Islam grew from a combination of the native polytheist religion of the Arabic people and influences from having interacted with the Jewish and Christian communties at that time. If Islam was a hersey of /anything/ it would have been of that native polytheist religion. Which incidentally was one of the reasons Muhammad first left Mecca for Medina, if I remember correctly.

 
 I see Islam has some non-Abrahamic religious heritage; I'm not denying it. But its doctrine seems to be strongly based on Judaism.
When in Rome do as the Romans do. (Ambrose)

RandallS

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2015, 02:39:46 pm »
Quote from: Kaio;169268
I think it's not about you or me; I think it's about Islam. And I can't help but conclude its core is a reformed Judaism.

Perhaps you can't help but conclude that, but you are going to have demonstrate it to be true to convince others that your conclusion is correct. Stating your conclusion forcefully, repeatedly, etc. is not evidence supporting it. :)
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Darkhawk

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2015, 02:51:52 pm »
Quote from: Kaio;169261
According to whom or from what viewpoint is he having been Jewish or not a requirement for being a Jewish heretic?


The one where heresy - by definition - involves dissention within a religion.

Quote
If he put himself in the religious tradition of Abraham, Moses and Jesus and if he is regarded as pertaining to the said religious tradition by his followers, I can't see why his religion can't be thought of as a heresy from the Jewish religion.

 
Some people put themselves and their religious witchcraft practices in the religious tradition of Gardner and Saunders, but that doesn't make them BTW heretics, since they were never initiated.
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Valentine

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2015, 03:56:37 pm »
Quote from: Kaio;169268

 How about Quran? It states that Abraham was not a Jew, but a Muslim; that Jacob and his offspring were Muslims; and that Moses and Jesus were Muslims too.

 
You are mistaken in your understanding of these verses.  Those people are described as "muslim" not meaning, "member of the religion we now call Islam" but meaning, "person who has submitted to the will of God," the literal meaning of the word.  (Abraham is also sometimes described as a "hanif," a word that basically means, "a person who was living morally and righteously and like we would want a Muslim to without having access to Islam," a word almost exclusively reserved for people whose lives predate Muhammad's and which includes some ostensible pagans, like Zayd ibn Amr, who maintained monotheism.)

Muhammad was very direct about his belief in being a corrective, additional prophet on top of the Abrahamic canon and in the tradition of Christians and Jews, but he was not a schismatic or heretic within Jewish tradition--he came from outside and (with the input of many Christians and Jews he knew, some of whom were among the first converts to Islam) made a new religion.  Yes, Islam is in continuity with the other Abrahamic faiths, quite explicitly, but it's not a Jewish heresy because it wasn't started by Jews splitting off from other Jews, but by an outside group joining the party, which is sort of in the opposite direction.

Honestly, I don't understand your take on a lot of the Biblical stuff about Jewish proselytization, either; Biblical history includes a lot of material about Jewish conquest of their neighbors, which is plenty violent, but doesn't involve any attempt to make those people Jews.  Mostly it's about just killing them.  There's some intra-Jewish conversion-ish material--stories about railing against Jews who have adopted some pagan practices and trying to bring them back into the fold of monotheism--but no converting of the neighbors.  

Even today, the only Jews with any kind of proselytizing outreach are the Messianics--who most Jews consider a kind of Christians, not a kind of Jews, and who are following the Christian direction of the Great Commission--and some groups of Hasidim, who explicitly don't proselytize to Gentiles, but only to try to bring other Jews into their vision of a more correct form of Judaism for the purposes of hurrying up the end of days.
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Kaio

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2015, 04:32:52 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;169271
Perhaps you can't help but conclude that, but you are going to have demonstrate it to be true to convince others that your conclusion is correct. Stating your conclusion forcefully, repeatedly, etc. is not evidence supporting it. :)


 I'm not trying to convince anyone! :) Haha... proselytists try to convince people! Paganism is about diversity. I was only talking about how I came to think what I think about the origin of Islam.
 I quoted Quran when I replied to Sage. I don't think this is stating my conclusion forcefully or repeatedly.
 A forum like this one is about debate. People are supposed to have different opinions here.
 
Quote from: Darkhawk;169272
The one where heresy - by definition - involves dissention within a religion.


 I'm not a specialist but I think some doctrines widely considered Christian heresies were formed when there was no clear (and/or at least normative) notion of what  Christianism was. Arianism is an example of a doctrine viewed as heretical that counters your definition; how could Arianism be heretical if there wasn't even a clear Christian ortodoxy (and so, a normative idea of what Christianism was) when Arius started to teach his doctrine? It was only after the First Council of Nicaea, after the construction of a Christian ortodoxy that Arianism, already formed, could be regarded as heretical. According to your definition it doesn't make sense to see Arianism as heretical but it's seen this way by many Christians.
 
Quote from: Darkhawk;169272
Some people put themselves and their religious witchcraft practices in the religious tradition of Gardner and Saunders, but that doesn't make them BTW heretics, since they were never initiated.

 
 I think Wicca is an altogether different situation.
 (Gardnerian) Wicca - that is the only Wicca according to some people - is oathbound, initiatory and lineaged. I don't know much about it but it seems that high priests may form their own covens and things became more complex when initiated, lineaged Wiccans wrote books about what is seen by some people as forms (or parts) of Wicca that could be published.
 I think Wiccans, whether Gardnerian or not, usually do not use the word "heresy" to refer to forms of religious witchcraft more or less related to the (Gardnerian) Wicca. But there are disputes around the word "Wicca", its meaning and other aspects of this/these religion(s).
 Anyways I think Islam and Wicca have very dissimilar social features and historical developments.
When in Rome do as the Romans do. (Ambrose)

Kaio

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2015, 04:53:39 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;169274
(...)

Muhammad was very direct about his belief in being a corrective, additional prophet on top of the Abrahamic canon and in the tradition of Christians and Jews, but he was not a schismatic or heretic within Jewish tradition--he came from outside and (with the input of many Christians and Jews he knew, some of whom were among the first converts to Islam) made a new religion.  Yes, Islam is in continuity with the other Abrahamic faiths, quite explicitly, but it's not a Jewish heresy because it wasn't started by Jews splitting off from other Jews, but by an outside group joining the party, which is sort of in the opposite direction.

Honestly, I don't understand your take on a lot of the Biblical stuff about Jewish proselytization, either; Biblical history includes a lot of material about Jewish conquest of their neighbors, which is plenty violent, but doesn't involve any attempt to make those people Jews.  Mostly it's about just killing them.  There's some intra-Jewish conversion-ish material--stories about railing against Jews who have adopted some pagan practices and trying to bring them back into the fold of monotheism--but no converting of the neighbors.


 OK; "Jewish heresy" is not the best way to say what I meant. But I think I expressed myself this way because the origin of the Abrahamic canon seems to be Judaism even if Muhammad himself was not a Jew.
 About Jewish proselytism I agree with you again; what those Jews did at that time wasn't proselytism. They not only committed genocides, but they also tried to destruct what was adopted by some Jews from the religions of their enemies.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 04:55:56 pm by Kaio »
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Darkhawk

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2015, 07:02:01 pm »
Quote from: Kaio;169275
I'm not a specialist but I think some doctrines widely considered Christian heresies were formed when there was no clear (and/or at least normative) notion of what  Christianism was. Arianism is an example of a doctrine viewed as heretical that counters your definition; how could Arianism be heretical if there wasn't even a clear Christian ortodoxy (and so, a normative idea of what Christianism was) when Arius started to teach his doctrine? It was only after the First Council of Nicaea, after the construction of a Christian ortodoxy that Arianism, already formed, could be regarded as heretical. According to your definition it doesn't make sense to see Arianism as heretical but it's seen this way by many Christians.


Is there some part of this that's incompatible with "dissent within a religion", then?  I'm not seeing it.
 
Quote
Anyways I think Islam and Wicca have very dissimilar social features and historical developments.

 
Which is not relevant to the point that neo-Wicca and other things cannot be BTW heresies, no matter how far from BTW they are, even if they claim to be 'in the tradition of'.
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sea

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2015, 07:39:38 pm »
Well I have to say that this is one of the nicest discussions on 'violent islamists' that I have come across.

I guess I was using this as a bit of litmus test for what the forum was like. I actually searched 'islam' specifically to see what came up. I have become very anxious over the vitriol that I see on the internet between different groups and individuals. Not to mention a lack of logic.

But this discussion managed to stay relatively sensible :)

sea

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Re: Islamists Murder 12 at French Magazine
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2015, 07:54:14 pm »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;169069
I'm agreeing that some religions are more violent than others. Although implying islam is the only one is absurd.

 
Many times I find the implication that religions cause or have a major link to violence to be absurd because if you take away religion then power struggles and 'difference' (causing attacks on others) will still remain.

I get that some violence is said, by the aggressor, to be religion based - but I don't think that reflects on the religion so much as that group of people. Using Islam as the example if you look at most muslims they are not violent, conspiring individuals, just people living their lives. That suggests to me that the violence is not a part of the religion.

What's more, so much aggression in the world today has no link to religion at all so why do we jump on 'religion' as the cause? Because we just don't like religion? Is it laziness - we don't want to have to think so we just blame it on religion? Because we don't really like those people or cultures that follow religion? Other reasons?

Can anyone tell me that there will be 'considerably' less violence in the world if we take out religion? I can't see it personally.

It does all get pretty complex but to me the root of the problem seems to be that we are humans. Humans are not perfect and we do a lot of stuff for negative reasons. We can be stoopid and greedy and violent, and religion may play a part in that at times - but the taking away of religion will not take away those aspects of our humanity. If only.

For the record, I don't agree AT ALL with what happened in France recently, though I looked at some of the cartoons and found them absolutely repulsive and vile. Just had to get that out there...

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