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Author Topic: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination  (Read 8327 times)

Melamphoros

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2014, 12:45:33 pm »
Quote from: Altair;140903
Blind Florida Man Gets Guns Back After Shooting Friend to Death


 
*blinks, tilts his head about 25 degrees to the right and stares at the headline with his mouth open*

I know that Florida is very . . . Florida-like . . . but it seems to me that someone who can't see having access to guns would be a safety issue.


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sailor

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2014, 03:47:53 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;140887
Quite frankly, yes.  If you have a business open to the public, you serve anyone regardless of their beliefs.  This is coming from someone who used to deliver pizzas and had to deliver to places and organizations that made me uncomfortable :)

Heck, as you know, I do taxes.  I run into lots of people who's views I disagree with in the course of that.  However, as a professional, I put my feelings aside as I have a job to do and a client to serve to the best of my ability.  It's part and parcel of being a professional and serving the public.

I mean, if your religion forbids things and you pay wages to someone who uses that money to do that thing they are helping people do things against their 'values'.  Again, this is just a bald-faced attempt to make other people follow the tenets of your religion.  Not being able to control other people does not affect your freedom of religion.

 
OK, at least you are / have been in a position to be on the side of doing something uncomfortable with regards your beliefs.  

Not necessarily at TC, but on-line forums it seems that lots of people who cry out about group A that wants to not serve group B when group B offends group A's beliefs, etc don't ever think they'll be part of a group A.  Although I suspect that's because the number of small businesses that do creative work for hire, or provide services where the client's beliefs become obvious is very small.

sailor

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2014, 03:50:23 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;140908
*blinks, tilts his head about 25 degrees to the right and stares at the headline with his mouth open*

I know that Florida is very . . . Florida-like . . . but it seems to me that someone who can't see having access to guns would be a safety issue.

 
Ah, but you are being prejudiced.  It doesn't say how blind, or what kind of blindness he has.  Counter example, if you become blind should they take your car away, especially if they don't have to pay compensation?

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2014, 05:31:11 pm »
Quote from: sailor;140929
Counter example, if you become blind should they take your car away, especially if they don't have to pay compensation?

 
In my state they'll certainly take your license away, though you are expected to self-report. I don't believe you need a license to own a car, though, whereas you do need one to possess a firearm.
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sailor

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2014, 05:52:22 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;140931
In my state they'll certainly take your license away, though you are expected to self-report. I don't believe you need a license to own a car, though, whereas you do need one to possess a firearm.

 
Depends upon the state, for now and for the type of weapon.  The state also has to show a significant reason for not giving you a license.

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2014, 07:40:39 pm »
Code: [Select]
Quote from: sailor;140932
Depends upon the state, for now and for the type of weapon.  The state also has to show a significant reason for not giving you a license.

 
case in point for this, texas doesn't require a foid card to own a gun.  The dealer might have to do a background check, and if certain things come up, they can't sell you the gun, but no card required for just owning the thing. (my foid card came yesterday, I can get my gun back from my dad.  And maybe Ill learn to shoot it now too.)
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sailor

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2014, 08:07:11 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;140944
Code: [Select]

 
case in point for this, texas doesn't require a foid card to own a gun.  The dealer might have to do a background check, and if certain things come up, they can't sell you the gun, but no card required for just owning the thing. (my foid card came yesterday, I can get my gun back from my dad.  And maybe Ill learn to shoot it now too.)

 
Not might, must do a background check as a dealer.  Person to person sales, ie from your father to you if say you just turned of age, do not require a check.

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2014, 11:04:26 am »
Quote from: sailor;140948
Not might, must do a background check as a dealer.  Person to person sales, ie from your father to you if say you just turned of age, do not require a check.

 
that's what I should have said, must instead of might, sorry. Of course person to person sales with no background check leaves large loopholes for people who can't own a gun legally to get guns with no difficulty.    But I don't quite know how to deal with that without making selling your gun prohibitively difficult.
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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2014, 11:33:52 am »
Quote from: Altair;140888


So we as a society have a choice: We can live in a world where a member of a white supremacist church can refuse to bake a wedding cake for an interracial marriage, and a devout Muslim taxi driver can refuse service to a woman fare because she's immodestly dressed, and an evangelical EMS technician could refuse to help an injured gay guy, and a Nation of Islam black merchant can shut his shop door in the face of a potential white customer... or we can decide that, whatever one's personal beliefs, if one is running a business open to the public, it has to serve the public. That providing services to someone else doesn't necessarily constitute an endorsement of them or their ways. To just get on with the business of doing business and living our lives.

I choose the latter. That's what the fight over the AZ law is about.


You are so right. If a person is so worried about having to serve someone they disapprove of then they should be in a line of work where they don't deal face to face with customers. If you want to be in a service industry, then serve and shut up. Religious beliefs are no excuse to be an a-hole, and frankly Jesus would be horrified at the attitude so many of his "followers" have adopted in his name.

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2014, 11:47:07 am »
Quote from: Carla;140976
You are so right. If a person is so worried about having to serve someone they disapprove of then they should be in a line of work where they don't deal face to face with customers. If you want to be in a service industry, then serve and shut up. Religious beliefs are no excuse to be an a-hole, and frankly Jesus would be horrified at the attitude so many of his "followers" have adopted in his name.


There's no such thing as a "non-service" job.  Everyone works with/for someone whose beliefs (or politics, or lifestyle, or sexuality, or whatever) are wildly divergent from their own.  And everyone needs to get over their squicks and start realizing it doesn't matter how I (the general "I") feel about how someone else lives their life.  It's utterly irrelevant.

And that's what it's about:  discomfort.  Doesn't matter if the justification for it is religious.  It never trumps a person's right not to be discriminated against.
 
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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2014, 12:52:12 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;140978
There's no such thing as a "non-service" job.  Everyone works with/for someone whose beliefs (or politics, or lifestyle, or sexuality, or whatever) are wildly divergent from their own.  And everyone needs to get over their squicks and start realizing it doesn't matter how I (the general "I") feel about how someone else lives their life.  It's utterly irrelevant.

And that's what it's about:  discomfort.  Doesn't matter if the justification for it is religious.  It never trumps a person's right not to be discriminated against.
 
Brina

 
I am not talking about avoiding contact period, but jobs in the service industry in particular. Professions such as catering, photography, tax preparation, law practices, etc have room where the person providing the service is likely also the owner of the company (or works closely with the owner). If you open a shop or business of some sort and advertise to the public, you will get a response from the public and that could include anyone, not just those you work with everyday. These are the people with the most power to discriminate against certain customers which is the issue at hand with the Arizona law from what I can tell.

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2014, 01:23:24 pm »
Quote from: Carla;140987
I am not talking about avoiding contact period, but jobs in the service industry in particular. Professions such as catering, photography, tax preparation, law practices, etc have room where the person providing the service is likely also the owner of the company (or works closely with the owner). If you open a shop or business of some sort and advertise to the public, you will get a response from the public and that could include anyone, not just those you work with everyday. These are the people with the most power to discriminate against certain customers which is the issue at hand with the Arizona law from what I can tell.


Certainly, but there's absolutely no reason that bigots (emboldened by precedent in the service industry, presumably) couldn't invoke similar "rights" in more sequestered workplaces.  My first point was that it's a slippery slope, my second is that it's completely irrelevant anyway because it's not really about religion.  Not that I'll ever convince a fundie of that.

Brina

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2014, 03:38:46 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;140974
that's what I should have said, must instead of might, sorry. Of course person to person sales with no background check leaves large loopholes for people who can't own a gun legally to get guns with no difficulty.    But I don't quite know how to deal with that without making selling your gun prohibitively difficult.

 
I figured you knew that, but to many non-gun owners wouldn't.  

I don't have a solution either.

sailor

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2014, 03:58:48 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;140978
There's no such thing as a "non-service" job.  Everyone works with/for someone whose beliefs (or politics, or lifestyle, or sexuality, or whatever) are wildly divergent from their own.  And everyone needs to get over their squicks and start realizing it doesn't matter how I (the general "I") feel about how someone else lives their life.  It's utterly irrelevant.

And that's what it's about:  discomfort.  Doesn't matter if the justification for it is religious.  It never trumps a person's right not to be discriminated against.
 
Brina

 
Well, let's develop this line of thought a bit.

Are there any circumstances where an organization can say that people of a certain group (race, ethnicity, religion, gender, national origin, sexual orientation, gender definition) can not hire the organization's services (say a computer support company)?  join the club (say a country club or gym) that is open to the general public other than the specific group?

Does it matter if the organization is a for-profit, not-for-profit or non-profit?  Does it matter if the people running the organization get paid or not paid for doing so?  

Does it matter if the people running the group, or some of the clients or members are offended by the to be excluded group?

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2014, 04:06:22 pm »
Quote from: Altair;140671

As conservatives continue to lose and lose and lose in the same-sex marriage debate


Chalk up another loss, this time...wait for it...

...in TEXAS.

(You know that's gotta hurt!)


Texas' ban on gay marriage ruled unconstitutional

Quote
Nationwide, seven states have struck down same-sex marriage bans, in whole or in part, in the past 65 days.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Texas-ban-on-gay-marriage-ruled-unconstitutional-5270099.php
 
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