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Author Topic: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination  (Read 8265 times)

sailor

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2014, 05:41:23 pm »
Quote from: EclecticWheel;140760
It's really sad.  In the article I read one reason in support of the bill was to protect people who don't suppoort same-sex marriage.  My thought was how refusing services, say in a restaurant, connects to that?  No one is forcing anyone to go to a same-sex wedding.

It was also in reaction to a photographer who was sued for not taking wedding pictures for a gay couple, but what if it was a straight couple who the photographer personally knew were terrible for each other?  Should (s)he have the right to refuse service to any couple whose marriage (s)he doesn't support?

It's not hard to start a new religion and even have it legally recognized.  If I started a religion claiming all straight people were spiritually inferior and procreation was enslavement of souls in matter would it be okay under this law to refuse services to all straight couples in the name of religious freedom?  Somehow I don't think that would go over too well!

The first amendment protects religious freedom but it is not absolute.  I can practice religion but if that meant I could take away others' Constitutional rights and legal freedoms in the name of my first amendment rights it would undermine the whole system.  As an extreme example, if I found a religion advocating murder, I don't gain the right thereby to kill anyone I like!

The law is not very logical to say the least.  The first thing I thought when I first read about it was Jim Crow laws.

 
1 - Don't think Jim Crow, since none of the laws prohibit straight or Christian business owners from serving gays or same sex couples.  Think "The Gentleman's Agreement" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0039416/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1  (Altair, is there a Black version of this theme?)

2 - With photographers, they are being forced to attend the same-sex marriage ceremony. Hard to take photos of a wedding if you are not there. As for the not doing a photo shoot of a straight couple that's not good for each other they'd have a defense that they have done plenty of weddings between straights of that religion.  If the couple was say Church of All Worlds and they hadn't done CAW wedding before they could be sued for religious discrimination - and the process is as much the punishment as the result.

3 - You could start a religion but the standard of proof for the govt prohibiting you from acting on your beliefs is a "compelling state interest". Murder and rape are compelling state interests, but say suicide may not be so Heinlein's Stranger In A Strange Land might become legal if trends continue.

4 - How about a less obvious case than murder?  

More later

Altair

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2014, 08:00:34 pm »
Quote from: sailor;140780
Think "The Gentleman's Agreement" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0039416/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1  (Altair, is there a Black version of this theme?)


Not that I'm aware of. It would be somewhat more difficult to pull off a white guy pretending he's black than a WASP pretending he's Jewish--though not impossible.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
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sailor

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2014, 08:21:19 pm »
Quote from: Altair;140791
Not that I'm aware of. It would be somewhat more difficult to pull off a white guy pretending he's black than a WASP pretending he's Jewish--though not impossible.

 
My bad.  I was thinking more of shows or movies showing overt discrimination by companies (ie Black family enters place and told to leave) rather than Jim Crow where the company is enforcing the discriminatory law. Plenty of Jim Crow stuff I imagine, not sure about the other though.  And no, I"m not talking about subtle stuff either.

Sefiru

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2014, 09:31:51 pm »
Quote from: sailor;140780
Don't think Jim Crow, since none of the laws prohibit straight or Christian business owners from serving gays or same sex couples.


I think people are seeing similarities in the motivations and/or pseudo-religious justifications for such laws, rather than their specific requirements.

sailor

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2014, 10:07:02 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;140795
I think people are seeing similarities in the motivations and/or pseudo-religious justifications for such laws, rather than their specific requirements.

 
Maybe. Or maybe poorly taught history. Or trying to link up the gay rights movement with the Jim Crow era Civil Rights Movement.

At least this is still in the political arena, not the courts. The side effects of a court decision to strike a cleaner written version down could hurt say Pagan stores (and maybe events if the knuckleheads get the motivation to do so).

Skyth

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2014, 11:12:09 am »
Quote from: sailor;140799
Or trying to link up the gay rights movement with the Jim Crow era Civil Rights Movement.


The opposition to gay rights shares a lot of the arguments with the arguments against blacks having rights.  It's a fair comparison.

Altair

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2014, 02:46:06 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;140826
The opposition to gay rights shares a lot of the arguments with the arguments against blacks having rights.  It's a fair comparison.


Indeed. While the history/experiences of African Americans and gays in this country are radically different (except in one very interesting realm), the end-product discrimination can look remarkably the same: not getting the job because you're black or gay, not getting the apartment because you're black or gay...

To the extent there were (for the most part) no laws excluding gays from equal participation, that's because until recently being gay itself was a criminal offense. Moreover, no one thought to make laws against gays because, unlike black people, you couldn't necessarily tell at a glance. What were they going to do--ban the flamboyant from lunch counters??
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Altair

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2014, 04:08:18 pm »
Quote from: Altair;140671

Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill


http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/21/us/arizona-anti-gay-bill/


Apparently the harsh national spotlight--and, more likely, the threat of economic losses for AZ--have taken a toll. A growing list of conservative lawmakers, including AZ's U.S. Senator John McCain and 3 AZ state senate Republicans who voted in favor of the bill, are lining up to ask Gov. Jan Brewer to veto it. (I've read somewhere--looking for the source--that if those 3 had voted no in the first place, it never would have passed.)

What strangeness!

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/02/three-ariz-gop-senators-who-voted-for-anti-gay-bill-now-calling-for-veto/
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

MadZealot

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2014, 04:20:48 pm »
Quote from: Altair;140841
What strangeness!

 
Indeed.  Seems even conservatives can "evolve" on an issue.
Oh, is it time again to say "Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets?"?

Okay. Fuck Trump gently in the ear with a swarm of pissed-off hornets.

Sefiru

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2014, 06:41:49 pm »
Quote from: Altair;140838
What were they going to do--ban the flamboyant from lunch counters??

 
Probably.

sailor

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2014, 08:00:18 pm »
Quote from: Altair;140841
Apparently the harsh national spotlight--and, more likely, the threat of economic losses for AZ--have taken a toll. A growing list of conservative lawmakers, including AZ's U.S. Senator John McCain and 3 AZ state senate Republicans who voted in favor of the bill, are lining up to ask Gov. Jan Brewer to veto it. (I've read somewhere--looking for the source--that if those 3 had voted no in the first place, it never would have passed.)

What strangeness!

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/02/three-ariz-gop-senators-who-voted-for-anti-gay-bill-now-calling-for-veto/

 
Or if it's a lot like the Kansas bill it gives to much power to employees to set, or maybe rather upset, corporate policy.

sailor

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2014, 04:38:09 am »
Quote from: Skyth;140686
I've never understood how not being able to force others to abide by the rules of your religion some how interferes with your religious freedom.  This and the contraceptive mandate have me shaking my head.

 
Uh, not quite. They don't want to help people do things that are against their religious principals.  They aren't saying gays can't have photographers at their wedding, just that they don't want to do the photography.  Not all that dissimilar than "if you don't want an abortion, then don't have one", or making a doctor perform FGM (when it was still legal pre 1996) on the basis that not doing it is discrimination based upon national origin.

Or for an example that more of the TC members might have experience with - should a pizza deliver person be required to make deliveries to a pro-life group office? Or a pro-life protest?

Skyth

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2014, 10:13:40 am »
Quote from: sailor;140869

Or for an example that more of the TC members might have experience with - should a pizza deliver person be required to make deliveries to a pro-life group office? Or a pro-life protest?


Quite frankly, yes.  If you have a business open to the public, you serve anyone regardless of their beliefs.  This is coming from someone who used to deliver pizzas and had to deliver to places and organizations that made me uncomfortable :)

Heck, as you know, I do taxes.  I run into lots of people who's views I disagree with in the course of that.  However, as a professional, I put my feelings aside as I have a job to do and a client to serve to the best of my ability.  It's part and parcel of being a professional and serving the public.

I mean, if your religion forbids things and you pay wages to someone who uses that money to do that thing they are helping people do things against their 'values'.  Again, this is just a bald-faced attempt to make other people follow the tenets of your religion.  Not being able to control other people does not affect your freedom of religion.

Altair

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2014, 10:24:20 am »
Quote from: sailor;140869
Uh, not quite. They don't want to help people do things that are against their religious principals.  They aren't saying gays can't have photographers at their wedding, just that they don't want to do the photography.  


The problem with that approach is that it doesn't give everyone that same privilege. Someone running a business serving the general public wants the right to refuse to provide services to a gay wedding, because it violates their religious beliefs? Fine. Then give every single gay wedding planner and floral designer the right to refuse to provide services to conservative Christian weddings, because it violates our conscience rights--I sure as hell don't want to be part of a wedding in a religion that considers me an "abomination" or "intrinsically disordered".

(That shudder you feel is every conservative Christian cringing at the godawful weddings they'd be condemned to.)

But we LGBT folks don't have the right. Because nondiscrimination laws forbid discrimination on the basis of religious affiliation. Yet in the name of "religious freedom," conservative Christians are now demanding that right to discriminate against us. In other words, they want exactly what they so long accused us queer folk of wanting: special rights.

So we as a society have a choice: We can live in a world where a member of a white supremacist church can refuse to bake a wedding cake for an interracial marriage, and a devout Muslim taxi driver can refuse service to a woman fare because she's immodestly dressed, and an evangelical EMS technician could refuse to help an injured gay guy, and a Nation of Islam black merchant can shut his shop door in the face of a potential white customer... or we can decide that, whatever one's personal beliefs, if one is running a business open to the public, it has to serve the public. That providing services to someone else doesn't necessarily constitute an endorsement of them or their ways. To just get on with the business of doing business and living our lives.

I choose the latter. That's what the fight over the AZ law is about.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Altair

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Re: Arizona legislature passes bill allowing anti-gay discrimination
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2014, 12:20:03 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;140739
Florida seems to have more weird uses of the ["Stand Your Ground'] law than it most other states that have it.


Case in point:

Blind Florida Man Gets Guns Back After Shooting Friend to Death

Quote
Even though the he said he didn't want to do it, a judge in Seminole County, Florida, was forced to return a Glock pistol and a rifle to a blind man who won immunity for killing another man under the state's "stand your ground" law.

 
http://gawker.com/blind-florida-man-gets-guns-back-after-shooting-friend-1529497232
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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