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Author Topic: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf  (Read 821 times)

Sobekemiti

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Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« on: August 25, 2017, 08:45:32 am »
So I'm currently 50/50 on whether this has any historical anticedent or is just one of those random made up gods you sometimes find (and I'm not wedded to either outcome), but I found this guy on Etsy and I've never seen a statue like that before and have no idea who it might be, if it is indeed of an existing god:

https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/260457582/egyptian-statue-god-apep-hand-carved?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=egyptian%20god&ref=sr_gallery_36

The same store has another one with what I assume is a sun disk on its head:

https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/260350917/unique-egyptian-statue-god-apep-hand?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=egyptian%20god&ref=sr_gallery_10

It's clearly not apep, as the listings claim, because he holds the crook and the flail. But apart from that, I got no idea and my google-fu has turned up nothing useful. I mean, I look at it and it feels like an aspect of Wesir-Ra, but *throws hands up*.

I just find it a really fascinating statue, but have no idea if it has a name. I'm entirely willing to accept someone got bored and but a snake-head on Wesir's body, but I thought I'd ask anyway, just in case.
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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2017, 09:19:56 am »
It's clearly not apep, as the listings claim, because he holds the crook and the flail. But apart from that, I got no idea and my google-fu has turned up nothing useful. I mean, I look at it and it feels like an aspect of Wesir-Ra, but *throws hands up*.

My first thought is to want to go poking into iconography of Nehebkau, myself.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Sobekemiti

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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2017, 12:08:00 am »
My first thought is to want to go poking into iconography of Nehebkau, myself.

Yes, that was a name that popped up a lot in my research, but nothing suggests he was ever depicted mummiform. Snake-headed man, yes, but not mummiform. That said, there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about him so I can't be certain on that point. He's also come up recently when researching Renenutet, so that's interesting, too. From what I've read about him, this depiction for him doesn't seem ... implausible? But I have nothing to back up that assertion apart from instinct. I'll have to keep looking and see what I can find. I'm just really fascinated by this statue.
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Darkhawk

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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2017, 11:03:42 am »
Yes, that was a name that popped up a lot in my research, but nothing suggests he was ever depicted mummiform. Snake-headed man, yes, but not mummiform. That said, there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about him so I can't be certain on that point. He's also come up recently when researching Renenutet, so that's interesting, too. From what I've read about him, this depiction for him doesn't seem ... implausible? But I have nothing to back up that assertion apart from instinct. I'll have to keep looking and see what I can find. I'm just really fascinated by this statue.

I am now pondering digging into theories of what a mummiform representation actually means - why the gods who are portrayed that way are.  Aside from Wesir, of course, for whom it's obvious.

Another thought: ISTR the Ogdoad gods are sometimes mummiform (due to status as Primal Ancestors) though the snake-headed ones are the female ones also IIRC.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Sobekemiti

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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2017, 11:14:25 am »
I am now pondering digging into theories of what a mummiform representation actually means - why the gods who are portrayed that way are.  Aside from Wesir, of course, for whom it's obvious.

Another thought: ISTR the Ogdoad gods are sometimes mummiform (due to status as Primal Ancestors) though the snake-headed ones are the female ones also IIRC.

Yes, I've pondered that too, though my theory up till now is basically connecting it to Wesir, but idk. I also read an interesting thesis a while back on the death of Egyptian gods. That gave me a lot of thinky thoughts, too. I'd never considered it in connection to the mummiform thing, though now I want to go back and reread it and give it some more thinky thoughts.

I also considered the Ogdoad too, because idk this statue does resonate with some of that energy, but yeah, the goddesses are the snake-headed ones, and afaik, I don't think I've ever seen a goddess depicted mummiform before? But of course I could be wrong there too.

I've been diving a lot into the snake goddess thing too because I'm trying to find a decent representation for Renenutet, but haven't found anything I really like yet, so I'm paying more attention to cobras and snake-headed gods more than usual.
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Darkhawk

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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2017, 12:38:06 pm »
Yes, I've pondered that too, though my theory up till now is basically connecting it to Wesir, but idk. I also read an interesting thesis a while back on the death of Egyptian gods. That gave me a lot of thinky thoughts, too. I'd never considered it in connection to the mummiform thing, though now I want to go back and reread it and give it some more thinky thoughts.

I also considered the Ogdoad too, because idk this statue does resonate with some of that energy, but yeah, the goddesses are the snake-headed ones, and afaik, I don't think I've ever seen a goddess depicted mummiform before? But of course I could be wrong there too.

Hrrrr.  If anyone, I would guess Nit (Neith).  Which actually gets me somewhere...

The Big Gods best known for mummiform portrayals:  Wesir, Min, Ptah.  Sokar.  Lesser powers: the Sons of Heru, the gods of the judgement tribunal.

All of these are tied in with often-primal (re)generative power, which is of course also Nit's bag.

Quote
I've been diving a lot into the snake goddess thing too because I'm trying to find a decent representation for Renenutet, but haven't found anything I really like yet, so I'm paying more attention to cobras and snake-headed gods more than usual.

So now I'm poking at that.  The Ogdoad gods are snakes and frogs because those were thought of as particularly primordial beings.  (Frogs I think of as being fairly straight-up fecundity, where snakes were more dangerous, having a greater capacity to be a direct threat as well as benevolent.)

So we've got a dangerous-primordial entity (snake-headed) partaking of (re)generative power (mummiform).
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

CoyoteFeathers

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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2017, 08:24:40 pm »
So I'm currently 50/50 on whether this has any historical anticedent or is just one of those random made up gods you sometimes find (and I'm not wedded to either outcome), but I found this guy on Etsy and I've never seen a statue like that before and have no idea who it might be, if it is indeed of an existing god:

https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/260457582/egyptian-statue-god-apep-hand-carved?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=egyptian%20god&ref=sr_gallery_36

The same store has another one with what I assume is a sun disk on its head:

https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/260350917/unique-egyptian-statue-god-apep-hand?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=egyptian%20god&ref=sr_gallery_10

It's clearly not apep, as the listings claim, because he holds the crook and the flail. But apart from that, I got no idea and my google-fu has turned up nothing useful. I mean, I look at it and it feels like an aspect of Wesir-Ra, but *throws hands up*.

I just find it a really fascinating statue, but have no idea if it has a name. I'm entirely willing to accept someone got bored and but a snake-head on Wesir's body, but I thought I'd ask anyway, just in case.

Looks like a cheaply-made gift shop thing to me. Made to capitalize on the tourists who don't actually know anything about ancient Egypt or Kemeticism. IMO it's probably not anything about someone someone said "make it look Egyptian," so they just slapped a mummiform and a snake head together and called it a day. You can see the two are made from the same mold, just with the second one having a sun disk attached, and whatever hieroglyphs are supposed to be on the legs have nearly been erased by the casting job they did.

Unfortunate, but I see a lot of these types of things- particularly in local pagan stores selling figures of Celtic deities, or even the Scandinavian store nearby that sells statues of Norse gods who mostly look like they belong on 80s metal album covers.

But I suppose, it likely being not anyone in particular, you could ascribe the image to whoever you feel it best fits?

Sobekemiti

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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2017, 09:39:39 pm »
Looks like a cheaply-made gift shop thing to me. Made to capitalize on the tourists who don't actually know anything about ancient Egypt or Kemeticism. IMO it's probably not anything about someone someone said "make it look Egyptian," so they just slapped a mummiform and a snake head together and called it a day. You can see the two are made from the same mold, just with the second one having a sun disk attached, and whatever hieroglyphs are supposed to be on the legs have nearly been erased by the casting job they did.

Unfortunate, but I see a lot of these types of things- particularly in local pagan stores selling figures of Celtic deities, or even the Scandinavian store nearby that sells statues of Norse gods who mostly look like they belong on 80s metal album covers.

But I suppose, it likely being not anyone in particular, you could ascribe the image to whoever you feel it best fits?

Well, like I said, I'm not wedded to it being actually historical and just a random statue someone made up. And that's fine. It's just a really interesting and fascinating choice of made-up imagery, which is why it fascinates me.
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Sobekemiti

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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2017, 09:57:56 pm »
Hrrrr.  If anyone, I would guess Nit (Neith).  Which actually gets me somewhere...

The Big Gods best known for mummiform portrayals:  Wesir, Min, Ptah.  Sokar.  Lesser powers: the Sons of Heru, the gods of the judgement tribunal.

All of these are tied in with often-primal (re)generative power, which is of course also Nit's bag.

There's Khonsu, too, when He's not being falcon-headed. Not sure there's any others, though.

I can't say I've ever seen Nit portrayed that way. But I can see your logic. Which makes me wonder whether (re)generative power in Egyptian thought is much more passively masculine than it might be in other cultures? Which is why you don't see the goddesses portrayed that way? Because they're too active? But why I can see it with Nit, because She is both. I'm almost tempted to try and make that image, just to see how Her energy would change in that form. Hmm.

So now I'm poking at that.  The Ogdoad gods are snakes and frogs because those were thought of as particularly primordial beings.  (Frogs I think of as being fairly straight-up fecundity, where snakes were more dangerous, having a greater capacity to be a direct threat as well as benevolent.)

So we've got a dangerous-primordial entity (snake-headed) partaking of (re)generative power (mummiform).

IIRC, the Ogdoad pairings are sometimes thought of as two parts of one being? Or am I being daft? I'd imagine, though, that if you did combine them into one, you might come up with a snake-headed mummiform thing. But there's definitely something primordial and (re)generative about it, that's for sure.
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Darkhawk

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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2017, 11:35:20 am »
There's Khonsu, too, when He's not being falcon-headed. Not sure there's any others, though.

I can't say I've ever seen Nit portrayed that way.

I don't know whether or not I have, and I have failed at finding any ithyphallic Nit images to peer at in quick searches to see whether a hazy half-memory is actually a possible thing.  I mean, the silhouette is not far off a sheath dress.

Quote
But I can see your logic. Which makes me wonder whether (re)generative power in Egyptian thought is much more passively masculine than it might be in other cultures? Which is why you don't see the goddesses portrayed that way?

It's an interesting question, yeah.  Though something like the gender thing is present in at least some philosophical schools in Hindu thought IIRC, with the Shiva/Shakti dynamic.  (I need to reread my book on Egyptian and Indian connections at some point.)

Quote
Because they're too active? But why I can see it with Nit, because She is both. I'm almost tempted to try and make that image, just to see how Her energy would change in that form. Hmm.

Oooh, that's an interesting thought.

Quote
IIRC, the Ogdoad pairings are sometimes thought of as two parts of one being? Or am I being daft? I'd imagine, though, that if you did combine them into one, you might come up with a snake-headed mummiform thing. But there's definitely something primordial and (re)generative about it, that's for sure.

Sometimes, yeah, the idea that there are these four things about the uncreated/infinite/etc. and they are gender-polarised primarily because we love our dualities, I suspect.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Sobekemiti

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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2017, 01:03:00 am »
I don't know whether or not I have, and I have failed at finding any ithyphallic Nit images to peer at in quick searches to see whether a hazy half-memory is actually a possible thing.  I mean, the silhouette is not far off a sheath dress.

The first image at the top of this page is is the only one I've found, and I have no way of verifying whether it is actually Nit: http://mythology.net/egyptian/egyptian-gods/neith/

There's also a statue of Min that always strikes me as very Nit-like in the face, but isn't actually Nit, so. But that's all I've managed to find, apart from vague references to Nit's name in the BotD being written with penises or something idk.

Sekhmet-Min is the only other ithyphallic goddess I've been able to find any evidence of, but I'm handwavey on syncretic forms because that feels like a different sort of thing than Nit. But ymmv.

It's an interesting question, yeah.  Though something like the gender thing is present in at least some philosophical schools in Hindu thought IIRC, with the Shiva/Shakti dynamic.  (I need to reread my book on Egyptian and Indian connections at some point.)

Yeah, because the mummiform image seems very passive to me, so it is interesting to only see gods portrayed that way rather than goddesses. Though I'm not surprised a similar thing exists in Hindu thought either. I don't know the Shive/Shakti thing very well, but that is interesting to see it there.

Oooh, that's an interesting thought.

Today's plan: draw ithyphallic mummiform Nit, just for shits n giggles.

Sometimes, yeah, the idea that there are these four things about the uncreated/infinite/etc. and they are gender-polarised primarily because we love our dualities, I suspect.

Yeah, that's the one. I did find an interesting quote that suggested Nit in one of Her aspects considered to be Nunet/Naunet, the counterpart of the Nun. That gave me a lot of Thinky Thoughts, and not just because of Her Great Flood associations. Hmm.
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Sobekemiti

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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2017, 05:34:59 am »
Today's plan: draw ithyphallic mummiform Nit, just for shits n giggles.

I did the thing: https://persebek.wordpress.com/2017/08/28/art-ithyphallic-mummiform-nitneith/

Imma go chew on that for a while. /derails own thread without a care in the world
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Darkhawk

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Re: Statue ID help: mummiform serpent-headed god wtf
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2017, 10:42:44 am »
Yeah, because the mummiform image seems very passive to me, so it is interesting to only see gods portrayed that way rather than goddesses.

In the Tarot I'm designing based on my metapantheon and such Wesir is the Hanged Man because of this.

Quote
Today's plan: draw ithyphallic mummiform Nit, just for shits n giggles.

But of course!

Quote
Yeah, that's the one. I did find an interesting quote that suggested Nit in one of Her aspects considered to be Nunet/Naunet, the counterpart of the Nun. That gave me a lot of Thinky Thoughts, and not just because of Her Great Flood associations. Hmm.

Now I'm pondering the transformation of the Ogdoad from liminals into concrete presences and what that does, and that's a whole different rabbithole really...
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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