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Author Topic: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe  (Read 9204 times)

Bastemhet

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2011, 10:54:14 pm »
Quote from: Nehet;25721
I'm not so sure if syncretism precludes hard polytheism.

I've actually wracked my brain a lot with syncretism.  I remember a late-night conversation with a Kemetic friend, when we tried to hash it out.  We finally came up with an interesting metaphor, which involved (of all things) horseback riding.  When you are truly in tune with a horse, you can move as one.  It is almost as if the horse's body is part of yours, and you are a part of that horse.  There's not a lot of effort required to communicate with the horse about where you want to go.  It's very natural, and intuitive.

That said, the horse doesn't stop being a horse, and you don't stop being a human being.  It might feel, at some point, like there is no differentiation.  However, that is not true.  When you get off the horse, you are still a complete, whole, individual being by yourself. So is the horse :)

 
My definition of hard-polytheism is the belief that each god is completely separate and distinct.  Syncretism does not really have this "separate and distinct" quality.  Of course, if that metaphor works for you and it's consistent with how you experience the gods, then great!  Different strokes for different folks. :)

Bastemhet

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2011, 11:04:20 pm »
Quote from: Nehet;25721
I'm not so sure if syncretism precludes hard polytheism.

I've actually wracked my brain a lot with syncretism.  I remember a late-night conversation with a Kemetic friend, when we tried to hash it out.  We finally came up with an interesting metaphor, which involved (of all things) horseback riding.  When you are truly in tune with a horse, you can move as one.  It is almost as if the horse's body is part of yours, and you are a part of that horse.  There's not a lot of effort required to communicate with the horse about where you want to go.  It's very natural, and intuitive.

That said, the horse doesn't stop being a horse, and you don't stop being a human being.  It might feel, at some point, like there is no differentiation.  However, that is not true.  When you get off the horse, you are still a complete, whole, individual being by yourself. So is the horse :)

 
And btw this is a great way to explain it if you see the syncretism as more of a function thing than a combining thing.

Meritmut

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2011, 12:26:49 am »
Quote from: Bastemhet;25877
Could you be a little more specific?  What do you mean by how I view her?

 
I read she is like the Pharaoh or Nisuit and has the Kingly Ka, is that correct? I was wondering in this case is her role sort of like the Pope? (Ex catholic that's the only religious leader I could think to equate her position with lol)

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2011, 07:27:28 am »
Quote from: Bastemhet;25878
...but I wouldn't be surprised if a complicated concept like this might get mangled while being exchanged from person to person.

 
Ah yes, let's pull out that old excuse, it's a definite classic and a great way of passively back-handing someone.  

Tamara will often explain the same concept in different ways to different people. That's part of what makes her a good teacher.
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Bezenwepwy

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2011, 09:29:32 am »
Quote from: Bezenwepwy;25518
... aspecting has more to do with when two deities are closely associated and perhaps have some overlap in their roles or which exist in a particularly close proximity with one another. Not the same thing as being facets of the same entity.

 
Sorry for the double post, I did mean to say this before but got caught short this morning. I just wanted to say that, anything KO completely aside, I do think this is a pretty sensible and logical way of viewing the notion of aspecting from a harder polytheistic point of view.

As for syncretism, I still like Spiegel's explanation of it the best.
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Devo

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2011, 11:12:59 am »
Quote from: Meritmut;25901
I read she is like the Pharaoh or Nisuit and has the Kingly Ka, is that correct? I was wondering in this case is her role sort of like the Pope? (Ex catholic that's the only religious leader I could think to equate her position with lol)

 
The more KO members you talk to, the more different answers you will get to this. I've heard people refer to her as OMG THE KING!!! And treat her like a divine being. I've met people who think of her as just a regular person that they respect. People had described her to me as being similar to the Pope, though I'm not really sure I completely like that similarity.

Generally speaking, it is said that she has the Kingly Ka. But what you want to make that mean will vary person to person.

Honestly, the best way to get to know Tamara is to read her forums, or email her personally. I have found that many of her followers really don't project her 'concept' well. I know that I had very different feelings towards her until I finally started to interact with her on her forums. Most people make her out to be something that she isn't, imo. The best way to 'cut through the crap' is to see how she talks with people first hand.

Just my .02.

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Bastemhet

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2011, 11:49:43 am »
Quote from: Meritmut;25901
I read she is like the Pharaoh or Nisuit and has the Kingly Ka, is that correct? I was wondering in this case is her role sort of like the Pope? (Ex catholic that's the only religious leader I could think to equate her position with lol)


Yes, she is the Nisut of KO.  I don't accept her as a pharoah, and no one in KO has to do so.  There are different types of membership, and only Shemsu-Ankh and above are expected to accept that she has a Kingly Ka.  I personally accept her as a spiritual teacher and head of the organization, spiritual and functionwise.  

I'm not too familiar with what the Pope's duties are within Catholicism so I'm not going to compare the two.

Bastemhet

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2011, 11:51:35 am »
Quote from: Bezenwepwy;25929
Ah yes, let's pull out that old excuse, it's a definite classic and a great way of passively back-handing someone.


I was not intending to "passively back-hand someone."  I'm speaking from experience and my frustrations during the Beginner's Course where I'd get 6 different answers to the same question, where people would rely on metaphors of varying success instead of giving it to me straight.  Only when I spoke to Rev. Siuda did I get the kind of answer that I had been asking for.

Quote
Tamara will often explain the same concept in different ways to different people. That's part of what makes her a good teacher.


I completely agree.

Bastemhet

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2011, 11:54:34 am »
Quote from: Devo;25957
Honestly, the best way to get to know Tamara is to read her forums, or email her personally. I have found that many of her followers really don't project her 'concept' well. I know that I had very different feelings towards her until I finally started to interact with her on her forums. Most people make her out to be something that she isn't, imo. The best way to 'cut through the crap' is to see how she talks with people first hand.

 
I whole-heartedly second this.  There are a lot of nasty rumors that fly around about her, but I recommend if you have any questions about KO or Rev. Siuda herself, it would be best to directly ask her (and I believe her e-mail can be found on the website).  She has been really friendly and thorough in her answers to me, and I don't think there's a problem in asking as long as you ask from a place of sincere curiosity, rather than from a place of challenge.

Bastemhet

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2011, 12:08:27 pm »
Quote from: Bastemhet;25959
I was not intending to "passively back-hand someone."  I'm speaking from experience and my frustrations during the Beginner's Course where I'd get 6 different answers to the same question, where people would rely on metaphors of varying success instead of giving it to me straight.  Only when I spoke to Rev. Siuda did I get the kind of answer that I had been asking for.

And to add onto that I've seen some members after having taken the Beginner's Course who still don't know what an Akh is or what the Duat is.  Then there's the thing where any member of KO is taken as a spokesperson for the organization and when you ask two different members on some specific info from the KO p.o.v. you will get varying answers, some of them conflicting.  Yes, it happens.  Yes, people make mistakes.  I'm not sure where or why you saw a veiled insult in what I was saying, but if our ideas of how the netjeru express themselves are different, I don't see any problem in that.  My ideas don't affect you or your experiences, and vice versa.  There were plenty of ways that ancient Kemetics experienced the netjeru in antiquity and there was no attempt to reconcile these different ideas (I'm referring to the different theologies).  I don't see why we can't continue to do the same now.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 12:10:32 pm by Bastemhet »

Helmsman_of_Inepu

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2011, 12:12:13 pm »
Quote from: Meritmut;25901
I read she is like the Pharaoh or Nisuit and has the Kingly Ka, is that correct? I was wondering in this case is her role sort of like the Pope? (Ex catholic that's the only religious leader I could think to equate her position with lol)

 
Oh, the Kingly Ka thing. The answers to that will vary, but I'll tell you mine.

This is from the perspective of me being a Remetj- meaning I took the beginners class, didn't have a huge allergic reaction to anything, enjoy aspects of the community, and like attending the online rituals (Duas) and heka projects. I wouldn't say that Kemetic Orthodoxy encompasses 100% of my Kemetic spirituality, but I've let Tamara know where I'm at, and it's apparently not bad enough for her to hit me with the old crook and flail. Or to crab at me at all so far.

Also, as I've said, I don't have a 'god radio,' so if someone says "so-and-so netjer told me this" I'm not going to argue with them unless they're getting told to start shooting people or something. I take the position that it's between them and their gods, and I extend the same attitude to Tamara. Recently I went to an event at Tawy House, and someone asked her about being offered the Ka in the car when we were driving back from dinner. It was quite interesting.

From my perspective, she's the head of Kemetic Orthodoxy. That doesn't make her infallible, and I don't think she claims to be. Obviously she has no political kingly power, and doesn't claim to have any. If she wants to be a dictatorial pope, she's spectacularly inept at it. It looks like she views it more as being responsible for the members rather than ruling over them. She certainly makes mistakes, just like you and me. ;)

If, for example, she said "You cannot have a Felix the Cat statue on your shrine," I would probably take it off if I was doing a Senut rite, or participating in an online dua. But it would go back on afterwards if I thought it should be there. So the Kemetic Orthodox stuff is within a Kemetic Orthodox context.

If I had her do the Rite of Parent Divination, and took the Shemsu oath, none of the above would change, really. It might if I proceeded to becoming a Shemsu Ankh, but I don't know the details of that oath.

In many ways, assuming she did get the kingly ka, it would have been better for all concerned if she had kept quiet about it and just taken the public role of high priestess or vizier to a symbolic, nonexistent pharaoh.
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Helmsman_of_Inepu

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2011, 12:57:31 pm »
Quote from: Bastemhet;25961
And to add onto that I've seen some members after having taken the Beginner's Course who still don't know what an Akh is or what the Duat is.  Then there's the thing where any member of KO is taken as a spokesperson for the organization and when you ask two different members on some specific info from the KO p.o.v. you will get varying answers, some of them conflicting.  Yes, it happens.  Yes, people make mistakes.  I'm not sure where or why you saw a veiled insult in what I was saying, but if our ideas of how the netjeru express themselves are different, I don't see any problem in that.  My ideas don't affect you or your experiences, and vice versa.  There were plenty of ways that ancient Kemetics experienced the netjeru in antiquity and there was no attempt to reconcile these different ideas (I'm referring to the different theologies).  I don't see why we can't continue to do the same now.


Wow! Ain't it the truth!!! Tamara has said that at least one person thought Apep was their spiritual parent when applying for the RPD! "He's so misunderstood.." :sick: IMO the beginners class should be completely revamped. There hasn't really been any requirement that you actually read a line of it to become a Remetj. Learning about the Kemetic worldview and the Netjeru should be awe-inspiring, not boring!

I have always enjoyed talking to Tamara, either through email or the boards,  and also in person at the Tawy thing. Some of the rumor stuff, like her selling mind-control ankhs, is so ridiculous that you'd think people would be ashamed to bring it up. (the mind-control anks are free, after all! :dwink: )

I think all the hostility just hurts Kemeticism in general, and everyone loses. People start to hear that stuff and just conclude that the whole thing is just too messed up to be involved with.

Right now, KO is the only Kemetic community any of us has access to, as far as something where members get together (even online) for festivals etc, and support each other. And community was one of the most important aspects of the Kemetic faith in antiquity. At the one dinner Tamara said that she was sick and tired of catching flack for being the only game in town, and that she had helped start and finance the Kemetic Interfaith Network board, partially in hopes that something would spring up there. (my paraphrase)

It's interesting to see her posting on KIN as "Tamara," pretty much as a regular person. It's unfortunate that so few KO members even bother to look over there, because they might learn a thing or two. But that's the other side of the hostility thing. Everybody loses.
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Darkhawk

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2011, 01:08:23 pm »
Quote from: Bastemhet;25961
And to add onto that I've seen some members after having taken the Beginner's Course who still don't know what an Akh is or what the Duat is.

 
Honestly, for all of my differences of theology and social stuff with HON, this is the thing that I actually think is a giant issue.  I hope the recent reorg will address the problem of "The pedagogy stinks on ice".
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Devo

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2011, 02:23:01 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;25970
Honestly, for all of my differences of theology and social stuff with HON, this is the thing that I actually think is a giant issue.  I hope the recent reorg will address the problem of "The pedagogy stinks on ice".


I know this thread isn't about KO grief, but I would say that I can't stand this either. I had hope that the Reorg would revamp things, but I honestly don't see it happening. If it is going to happen, it's going to happen at turtle speed :\

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Meritmut

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Re: Kemetic View of the Gods/Universe
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2011, 06:15:02 pm »
Quote from: Helmsman_of_Inepu;25969
Wow! Ain't it the truth!!! Tamara has said that at least one person thought Apep was their spiritual parent when applying for the RPD! "He's so misunderstood.." :sick: IMO the beginners class should be completely revamped.

It's interesting to see her posting on KIN as "Tamara," pretty much as a regular person. It's unfortunate that so few KO members even bother to look over there, because they might learn a thing or two. But that's the other side of the hostility thing. Everybody loses.

I am a member of the KIN boards and I have seen several of her postings, she seems super nice. That is why I asked the questions because your right I have heard several negative things about HON. But honestly for an organization to function someone has to be at the top somewhere lol. I just have theological differences with HON and the beginner's course I didn't feel taught me very much. I think I am going to take a year and do my own studies, it allows me to move at my own pace any way and experience things on an individual level. I do love these boards and the KIN boards I just wish they were a little bit more active, although this board has been which makes me happy :) .

I have the Miriam lichtheim Egyptian Literature all 3 volumes and so far they have been a major help in understanding the Ancient Egyptian view and love for the Gods.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 06:15:34 pm by Meritmut »

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