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Author Topic: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?  (Read 10839 times)

Setnakht

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2011, 06:18:28 pm »
Quote from: Chabas;34212
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Thank you, Chabas. I will do exactly that, when I feel that someone is being rude and inappropriate.

SatSekhem

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2011, 03:19:55 pm »
I know I'm late to the party, but I can actually comment on this! Useless knowledge FTW!

Quote from: Devo;32406
The Aten, AFAIK, isn't a monotheistic god. From what I have read, Aten was around from at least the MK.


It does seem to stem as far back as the MK period. However, the initial meaning for the term was an all-encompassing variant. It could be utilized to mean any form of flattened disc. It wasn't until later in the period when it began to be used solely to manifest as a god aspect of the solar disk. This first appears in the Story of Sinuhe as dated back to the 12th century (Papyrus Berlin 10499).


Quote from: Devo
Kemp himself has said that Akhenaten wasn't monotheistic. The people living during his reign seemed to worship the old gods instead of the Aten, for the most part. I guess there have been houses that were found is Amarna that had shrines to Akhenaten inside, but that outside of Amarna, it was rare. Kemp has noted that there were some reliefs made with other gods during that time- like he was nervous to entirely eradicate all of the gods. Or something of that nature. Needless to say, I doubt that all of Egypt changed their worship patterns when he took over. They just became more subdued.


It is, of course, incredibly difficult to figure out if Akhenaten was a monotheist or not. It would appear from the spotty evidence on record that he was a monotheist, however, one can never be sure. As it is, when it comes to the belief in a particular form of faith, the only way to concretely answer in someone else's name is by getting their viewpoint on said faith. Unfortunately, this is impossible. My personal thoughts are that he was a monotheist, but for political reasons as opposed to religious.

Most of the houses found in the Amarna setting had familial altars set up to worship the royal family. However, within the same ruins, one could find leftovers from shrines to other gods. This was more prominent in the lower caste housing, which was also further from the main aspect of town. Pieces of shrines for Tawaret and Hwt-Hrw seemed to have been the most prominent. At the workman's village outside of the Royal Wadi, there were shrines found to Meretseger, just like in the Royal Necropolis. It would appear that the upper classes weren't as "willing" to break the Pharaoh's new rules. However, the reality is probably more likely that they were just better about hiding their shrines. The reason few were found extant at Amarna was because, upon abandoning Akhenaten's city, they took the remnants of their familial and home shrines with them.

I'm not sure, as I haven't read Kemp's book, as to what other representations of other deities he's talking about. AFAIK, the start of the reign of the Aten began with his being brought forth little bit by little bit. I believe this is because Akhenaten was a damn political genius and seemed to know that just smashing through a thousands' of years established religion would have been near-on impossible. To be honest, I think that he initially needed this to happen in a slow-but-sure manner but for whatever reason was forced to speed up his time table. (Perhaps he really did go insane? Or, something major happened that caused him to be able to suddenly spring the Aten and his faith in this minor aspect on an unsuspecting populace.)

Another thing about other deities still being created during Akhenaten's reign... I think Kemp may also be referring to the fact that the very name of the Aten was rendered in two different aspects. The first aspect was, "Re-Horakhti who rejoices in the Horizon, in his name Shu which is the Aten." I believe this variation was popular for the first eight to twelve years of Akhenaten's reign. (My brain isn't as good about latching onto random factoids anymore, I'm afraid.) The secondary form managed to rid Akhenaten of any mention of other gods: "Re, ruler of the two horizons who rejoices in the Horizon, in his name of light which is the Aten."

You might be wondering about the Re mention in the second, later form of the Aten's name. In effect, Akhenaten was still firmly established within a solar religion, specifically to Re. Aspect of Re's cult were brought with him to Amarna, specifically the Apis bull.

The going theory on that is because Re's preeminence used to be all-encompassing. However, he had been eclipsed by Amun in Thebes, in effect, because of the expulsion of the Hyksos. (Kamose and Ahmose had to thank some god for their help, and since they were from Thebes, it stood to reason that they would choose Amun.) In a kind of, 'booby prize' the Re cult was granted quasi-important status by the merger with the god, Amun. The Amun-Re cult of Thebes was pretty damn powerful and of course, one of the main theories behind the Aten obsession was an effort to remove the power base from Amun-Re.

Akhenaten was raised at Heliopolis, or else it is thusly theorized. In all honesty, no one knows where this Amenhotep IV comes from prior to the death of his brother. It is based on the assumption that Akhenaten was raised at Heliopolis in the cult of Re that the obsession with the Aten sprung about.

Honestly? I think it was a generations-long plan to get rid of the power base of the Amun priests that backfired and failed utterly.
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Bezenwepwy

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2012, 11:42:01 am »
Quote from: SatSekhem;35412
I know I'm late to the party...

 
At least you're not like me, committing gross acts of thread necromancy. ;)

This thread inspired me to do further research into the idea of wolves in Egypt and I've uncovered some interesting things over the past few months. And it has made it necessary to give the topic of wolves in ancient egypt it's own page on my website. (Bear in mind I'm still doing the occasional tweak to the text itself, but the information itself isn't likely to change between updates.)

http://www.per-sabu.org/wolves--wnsw.html

:)
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WhiteWolf

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2012, 11:18:18 pm »
Quote from: Setnakht;31382
From time to time there has been discussion as to whether the Netjer Wepwawet was a wolf-headed or a jackal-headed deity. I have found the
following information inThe Salakhana Trove: Votive Stelae and Other Objects from Asyut. by Terence DuQuesne (London: 2009).
In the necropolis of Asyut there are several very large tombs dating to the 18th and 19th dynasties. A totoal of 556 stelae, 46 figurines, and three other objects were found. The majority of stelae honored Wepwawet as Lord of Asyut (what the Greeks named 'Lycopolis' or Wolf Town.
   The Egyptologist Lacau "referred to the sepulchre as 'la grande tombe d'Assiout qui contient les momies de loups.'" The translation is "the grand tomb of Asyut which contains mummies of wolves." (page 19)
   The problem, however, is complex because mummies of jackals and "other canids" (i.e., wolves) occur in the necropolis as well. This necropolis was specifically under the protection of Anpu (Anubis) so the presence of jackal mummies makes sense there. Therefore, we may say that Wepwawet bore the head of a wolf--but just tentatively. This mitigates against the notion that Wepwawet is just an aspect of Anubis, but is a separate netjer. The Greeks may have been quite right in naming Assyut
"Wolf Town." The main and largest temple in Assyut was that of Wepwawet.
A smaller temple there was that of Anubis.

 
The original wepwawet, the most ancient of the gods, was a white or grey wolf and known as the "opener of the way" (a psychopomp) of Lycopolis. It was so ancient that nothing survived of what Wepwawet looked like then. As each locality had their own deity, the religion was nationalized and the deities were incorporated into a larger cosmogony (like Horus the elder etc) into Enneads, Ogdoads, Triads etc.

The Greek should not be underestimated as they absorbed everything Egyptian and gave a Greek twist. The Greek equivalent of the Deity (Thoth & Hermes for example) and give a lot of insight into the original version of a Egyptian Deity.

The Psychopomp ("Opener of the way") eventually became Anubis, he would lead the dead to the scales in the Hall of Justice. Anubis became the merging of Anpu and Wepwawet (bis meaning two in Greek). Lucius Apuleius Platonicus mentioned the two faces of Anubis: "the one being black as night and the other golden as the day.”

Wepwawet was always represented standing, whereas Anpu was always recumbent. In the Hunefer Papyrus, a small standing Wepwawet (albeit black by this point in time) leads the corpse on the funerary boat and Anpu trails the boat in the recumbent position.

They eventually became a twin pair of recumbent jackals (both black) often facing each other or parallel to each other.

I have searched for a Lycopolis representation of Wepwawet but never was able to find one.

Bezenwepwy

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2012, 09:08:24 am »
Quote from: WhiteWolf;73279
The original wepwawet, the most ancient of the gods, was a white or grey wolf and known as the "opener of the way" (a psychopomp) of Lycopolis.


Wepwawet is an incrediably ancient god, one of the first to be depicted, and indeed has epithets which attest to him being considered rather primeval. But there are no declarations or depictions of him as a white or grey canid. As I've stated many times, a *colourless* depiction does not a white or grey colouration constitute. And I've already addressed the whole wolf thing in detail.

I'm not sure his earliest origins can necessarily be pinpointed exactly to Asyut, because there's also his close involvement with Nekhen and very early presence at Abydos as well.

Also while "Opener of the Way" can indeed refer to a psychopompic role, it is by no means limited to that. More often than not he opens the ways in the living world. Wepwawet isn't specifically a funerary deity. He's much more a representation of kingship and being firstborn son, with themes of ascension, etc.

Quote from: WhiteWolf
It was so ancient that nothing survived of what Wepwawet looked like then.


What do you mean? There are pre-dynastic representations of him such as his inclusion as part of the "Followers of Horus" standards on the Narmer Palette. We know exactly what he looked like and he remained remarkably unchanged throughout the whole AE history.

Quote from: WhiteWolf
The Psychopomp ("Opener of the way") eventually became Anubis, he would lead the dead to the scales in the Hall of Justice. Anubis became the merging of Anpu and Wepwawet (bis meaning two in Greek).


I think it is far more likely that when Anubis got ousted from his position as Khentyamentiu by Osiris, he began sharing in the role already established by Wepwawet. The two of them remained as a psychopompic team right through. There is no particular evidence that Wepwawet ever "became" Anubis however because Wepwawet never disappeared. The two of them are remarkably separate and distinct, even if they do come into close constellation with each other and can be seen as divine twins.

I'm also rather doubtful of your interpretation of Anubis's name. Although technically spelled Anpu, the name is actually Anup. The Greeks had a well established habit of adding an 's' to the end of their variations. So Anup became AnubiS, Heru became HoruS, Wesir became OsiriS, and 'Wepwa' (last w and t probably silent by that time) became OphoiS.

Quote from: WhiteWolf
Lucius Apuleius Platonicus mentioned the two faces of Anubis: "the one being black as night and the other golden as the day."


That's because Anubis contains within himself a very real duality and always has. No conflating with Wepwawet necessary to achieve that.

Quote from: WhiteWolf

Wepwawet was always represented standing, whereas Anpu was always recumbent. <...>

They eventually became a twin pair of recumbent jackals (both black) often facing each other or parallel to each other.


Well. Yes and no. For the most part you can say that. Wepwawet finds it much easier to assume the couchant positon than Anubis does the standing one. But it happens. There's a NK clay sealing from Thebes which shows Anubis as a standing jackal over the enemies of Egypt, for example. Given the context and the 'genre' of sealings it is very difficult to try to say it's Wepwawet.

You also need to look for other details such as whether or not the jackal is couchant on a shrine or on a standard, whether or not he is accompanied by the shedshed and uraeus. And context. And inscriptions.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'they eventually become' as the pairs of jackals begins on Middle Kingdom stelae from Abydos. Pretty early if you ask me. Interesting only a very tiny fraction of the stelae specifically name one jackal as Anubis and the other as Wepwawet. Two, in fact. Whereas 22 of them label both as Anubis, 37 as both Wepwawet, and 69 where there's no labeling at all and is probably purposefully ambiguous. (Numbers may be off by one or two, we're still finalizing the details for JD2.)

Quote from: WhiteWolf

I have searched for a Lycopolis representation of Wepwawet but never was able to find one.


Try the Salakhana Trove. Try the various tombs around Asyut. Try the Greek coinage from that nome. ;)
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SatAset

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2012, 12:08:54 pm »
Quote from: Bezenwepwy;73316


Well. Yes and no. For the most part you can say that. Wepwawet finds it much easier to assume the couchant positon than Anubis does the standing one. But it happens. There's a NK clay sealing from Thebes which shows Anubis as a standing jackal over the enemies of Egypt, for example. Given the context and the 'genre' of sealings it is very difficult to try to say it's Wepwawet.


So given this, would you say that Wepwawet can (sometimes) be depicted like this:  http://www.herbsandheirlooms.com/egyptian/anubissmall.jpg.  

Would you say that that statue could also be used for Wepwawet on a shrine or would that be more appropriate for Anubis or could that be used for both?  

Them as Divine Twins is really interesting.  Wow.  So many of those.
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Bezenwepwy

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2012, 12:49:22 pm »
Quote from: SatAset;73328
Would you say that that statue could also be used for Wepwawet on a shrine or would that be more appropriate for Anubis or could that be used for both?

 
It could be either/or. That particular statue also conveniently avoids the whole 'being on a shrine box versus being on a standard' thing and any more funerary connotations. I have my own personal feelings that the couchant position indicates a more 'passive' mode, or perhaps 'at ease.' And that's no bad thing for a jackal who is at home in your shrine! A standing jackal is always going to be more definitively Wepwawet though.
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WhiteWolf

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2012, 05:06:35 pm »
Quote from: Bezenwepwy;73316
Wepwawet is an incrediably ancient god, one of the first to be depicted, and indeed has epithets which attest to him being considered rather primeval. But there are no declarations or depictions of him as a white or grey canid. As I've stated many times, a *colourless* depiction does not a white or grey colouration constitute. And I've already addressed the whole wolf thing in detail.

I'm not sure his earliest origins can necessarily be pinpointed exactly to Asyut, because there's also his close involvement with Nekhen and very early presence at Abydos as well.

Also while "Opener of the Way" can indeed refer to a psychopompic role, it is by no means limited to that. More often than not he opens the ways in the living world. Wepwawet isn't specifically a funerary deity. He's much more a representation of kingship and being firstborn son, with themes of ascension, etc.

 

What do you mean? There are pre-dynastic representations of him such as his inclusion as part of the "Followers of Horus" standards on the Narmer Palette. We know exactly what he looked like and he remained remarkably unchanged throughout the whole AE history.



I think it is far more likely that when Anubis got ousted from his position as Khentyamentiu by Osiris, he began sharing in the role already established by Wepwawet. The two of them remained as a psychopompic team right through. There is no particular evidence that Wepwawet ever "became" Anubis however because Wepwawet never disappeared. The two of them are remarkably separate and distinct, even if they do come into close constellation with each other and can be seen as divine twins.

I'm also rather doubtful of your interpretation of Anubis's name. Although technically spelled Anpu, the name is actually Anup. The Greeks had a well established habit of adding an 's' to the end of their variations. So Anup became AnubiS, Heru became HoruS, Wesir became OsiriS, and 'Wepwa' (last w and t probably silent by that time) became OphoiS.



That's because Anubis contains within himself a very real duality and always has. No conflating with Wepwawet necessary to achieve that.



Well. Yes and no. For the most part you can say that. Wepwawet finds it much easier to assume the couchant positon than Anubis does the standing one. But it happens. There's a NK clay sealing from Thebes which shows Anubis as a standing jackal over the enemies of Egypt, for example. Given the context and the 'genre' of sealings it is very difficult to try to say it's Wepwawet.

You also need to look for other details such as whether or not the jackal is couchant on a shrine or on a standard, whether or not he is accompanied by the shedshed and uraeus. And context. And inscriptions.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'they eventually become' as the pairs of jackals begins on Middle Kingdom stelae from Abydos. Pretty early if you ask me. Interesting only a very tiny fraction of the stelae specifically name one jackal as Anubis and the other as Wepwawet. Two, in fact. Whereas 22 of them label both as Anubis, 37 as both Wepwawet, and 69 where there's no labeling at all and is probably purposefully ambiguous. (Numbers may be off by one or two, we're still finalizing the details for JD2.)



Try the Salakhana Trove. Try the various tombs around Asyut. Try the Greek coinage from that nome. ;)

 
Unfortunately, Greek coinage is a modern invention on the time scale we are talking about. I would like to see wepwawet before the first Dynasty (before 3100 B.C.) and the oldest Greek coins are 600 B.C. at best. There are few artifacts that old, one old artifact from the 1st Dynasty is a disc from the tomb of Hemaka which shows a black jackal with a white underbelly and a curly tail, and another dog-like creature in a tan color and a curly tail. Why couldn't the faces be a reference to these two dog-like creatures? This is before the jackal tail style had changed to be long and pendulous.

I would be careful about translations. I have seen text that definitely says Wepwawet and are translated in English to Anubis rather than Wepwawet probably to "help" the average public's understanding. Anpu in text is also often translated as Anubis.

Looking up Asyut in Wikipedia to see if any tombs would be old enough..

Ancient Asyut

Ancient Asyut was the capital of the Thirteenth Nome of Upper Egypt (Lycopolites Nome) around 3100 BC. It was located on the western bank of the Nile. The two most prominent gods of the Ancient Egyptian Asyut were Anubis and Wepwawet, both funerary deities.

Lycopolis has no remarkable ruins, but in the excavated chambers of the adjacent rocks mummies of wolves have been found, confirming the origin of its name, as well as a tradition preserved by Diodorus Siculus,[5] to the effect that an Ethiopian army, invading Egypt, was repelled beyond the city of Elephantine by packs of wolves. Osiris was worshipped under the symbol of a wolf at Lycopolis. According to a myth, he had come "from the shades" as a wolf to aid Isis and Horus in their combat with Typhon.[6] Other Ancient Egyptian monuments discovered in Asyut include; the Asyut necropolis (west of the modern city), tombs which date to dynasties Nine, Ten and Twelve, and the Ramessid tombs of Siese and Amenhotep.

Finding Osiris in the form of a Wolf would be an interesting artifact. If you have seen it, maybe it could be obvious to see if it was a jackal rather than a wolf. If you know of an older artifact than the disc from the tomb of Hemaka showing Wepwawet, please let us (me) know. Thanks!

Bezenwepwy

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2012, 06:14:26 pm »
Quote from: WhiteWolf;73381
There are few artifacts that old, one old artifact from the 1st Dynasty is a disc from the tomb of Hemaka which shows a black jackal with a white underbelly and a curly tail, and another dog-like creature in a tan color and a curly tail. Why couldn't the faces be a reference to these two dog-like creatures? This is before the jackal tail style had changed to be long and pendulous.


That disk has no particular relationship to Wepwawet and Anubis. It is showing exactly what it appears to be showing - someone's domesticated hunting dogs. Your argument about the tail style is a non-starter because it's simply incorrect. Proto-dynastic and pre-dynastic representations of jackals and wild canids show the bushy tail.

What exactly is it that you are looking for? Pre-dynastic representations of Wepwawet? Try the Bull Palette, the macehead of King Scorpion, the macehead of Narmer, and the palette of Narmer. For very early dynastic there's the ivory label of King Den where he is smiting an enemy, as well as several cylinder seals from Dynasty 0-III. The representations of Wepwawet are very distinct and complete with shedshed and/or even the uraeus.

If you are really interested in reading up on the earliest origins of the jackal deities, then you absolutely must buy a copy of Terence DuQuesne's "The Jackal Divinities of Egypt: I: From the Archaic Period to Dynasty X"

Quote from: WhiteWolf
I would be careful about translations. I have seen text that definitely says Wepwawet and are translated in English to Anubis rather than Wepwawet probably to "help" the average public's understanding. Anpu in text is also often translated as Anubis.


You're preaching to the chantresses on the point about translations. It is a definite problem and one which I've been working rather hard to correct. Not sure why you're calling out cases of Anpu being translated as Anubis however, because it's not incorrect and is the standard Egyptological way of handling it. Wesir is always translated Osiris, Aset is Isis, etc. I know a lot of modern practitioners shy away from the Greek versions, but it's perfectly acceptable and Anpu=Anubis is very clear cut. (Whereas 'Aset=Isis' genuinely IS full of pitfalls.)


Quote from: WhiteWolf
Looking up Asyut in Wikipedia...


Please don't. What you got was a load of information from Diodorus. I didn't realize you were exclusively interested in pre-dynastic images.

Quote from: WhiteWolf
Finding Osiris in the form of a Wolf would be an interesting artifact.

 
There won't be an artifact, it's an interpretation of the mythology. There are undoubtedly very long standing connections between Osiris and Wepwawet. And although it is very rare, there are a few instances of Osiris being assigned a jackal form. (Middle Kingdom, undoubtedly a side-effect of him taking on of the mantle of 'Khentyamentiu' and perhaps also related to the fact that the noble dead had previously been envisioned as taking on a jackal form in death.) In the Ptolemaic and later periods, it seems that the Greeks didn't like the idea of Osiris playing such a passive role in his own story, so they tried to interpret Wepwawet as being a manifestation through which Osiris could play a more active role. It's a very silly.
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WhiteWolf

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2012, 06:20:43 am »
Quote from: Bezenwepwy;73398

What exactly is it that you are looking for? Pre-dynastic representations of Wepwawet? Try the Bull Palette, the macehead of King Scorpion, the macehead of Narmer, and the palette of Narmer. For very early dynastic there's the ivory label of King Den where he is smiting an enemy, as well as several cylinder seals from Dynasty 0-III. The representations of Wepwawet are very distinct and complete with shedshed and/or even the uraeus.

They are so close to the first dynasty that I consider them from that period.

Quote from: Bezenwepwy;73398
If you are really interested in reading up on the earliest origins of the jackal deities, then you absolutely must buy a copy of Terence DuQuesne's "The Jackal Divinities of Egypt: I: From the Archaic Period to Dynasty X"

I am not sure I am $210/backorder interested! besides, I am not sure it would have what I am looking for. Do you have this book?

Quote from: Bezenwepwy;73398
Not sure why you're calling out cases of Anpu being translated as Anubis however, because it's not incorrect and is the standard Egyptological way of handling it. Wesir is always translated Osiris, Aset is Isis, etc. I know a lot of modern practitioners shy away from the Greek versions, but it's perfectly acceptable and Anpu=Anubis is very clear cut. (Whereas 'Aset=Isis' genuinely IS full of pitfalls.)

I wish the Egyptologists would just translate. If it says Anpu then why not use Anpu!

Quote from: Bezenwepwy;73398

In the Ptolemaic and later periods, it seems that the Greeks didn't like the idea of Osiris playing such a passive role in his own story, so they tried to interpret Wepwawet as being a manifestation through which Osiris could play a more active role. It's a very silly.

I think the Ptolemaic Greeks did re-interpret many aspects of Egyptian gods and knowledge. Getting back to the pre-dynastic association between Osiris and Wepwawet. I think the idea of resurrection or afterlife if you will, was a central idea behind both Osiris and Wepwawet. Osiris having "led the way and created a path for others to follow" and Wepwawet "leading" the way to it. I think they were two independent ideas that were combined because they were similar concepts.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 06:22:49 am by WhiteWolf »

Bezenwepwy

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2012, 08:13:06 am »
Quote from: WhiteWolf;73887
They are so close to the first dynasty that I consider them from that period.


... I'm sorry, what? Perhaps I'm misreading you, but it actually sounds like you're dismissing those pre-dynastic examples, despite the fact they're earlier than the one you gave and far more relevant.

Quote from: WhiteWolf


I am not sure I am $210/backorder interested! besides, I am not sure it would have what I am looking for. Do you have this book?


Bah. No need to wait for a middleman book seller, you could just buy it straight from the distributor if you wanted. And yes, I have it. Along with everything else Terence has ever written about jackal deities. (And numerous other references and resources about the jackal deities besides.)

As for what you're looking for, that's a good question. What is it again, specifically?

Quote from: WhiteWolf
Getting back to the pre-dynastic association between Osiris and Wepwawet. I think the idea of resurrection or afterlife if you will, was a central idea behind both Osiris and Wepwawet. Osiris having "led the way and created a path for others to follow" and Wepwawet "leading" the way to it.


What pre-dynastic association between Osiris and Wepwawet? I'm not an expert on Osiris, but in pre-dynastic times wasn't he mainly just an agricultural/fertility deity? It wasn't until the Pyramid Texts and his coming to Abydos that the connection between him and Wepwawet is really established. The first god of the dead, the one whom the deceased originally took on the appearance and aspects of, was the jackal Khentyamentiu (the UR-form of Anubis.)

I still think you're placing too much funerary emphasis on Wepwawet. The central idea behind him is the function of Opening the Way with it's various nuances of cleaving through obstacles and judging the best path. It has more to do with opening the way to triumph. Making it successfully to the afterlife is one such victory. Ascending to the throne is another. The rest of the gods being lead safely in procession is one too.
In Jackal-Infested Waters - The continuing adventures...
Per-Sabu.org - More jackals than you can shake a stick at.

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2012, 08:32:19 am »
Quote from: Bezenwepwy;73891

Bah. No need to wait for a middleman book seller, you could just buy it straight from the distributor if you wanted. And yes, I have it. Along with everything else Terence has ever written about jackal deities. (And numerous other references and resources about the jackal deities besides.)

I still think you're placing too much funerary emphasis on Wepwawet. The central idea behind him is the function of Opening the Way with it's various nuances of cleaving through obstacles and judging the best path. It has more to do with opening the way to triumph. Making it successfully to the afterlife is one such victory. Ascending to the throne is another. The rest of the gods being lead safely in procession is one too.


I think I'll start with:
Anubis, Upwawet, and Other Deities: Personal Worship and Official Religion in Ancient Egypt

I really don't see wepwawet as a funerary deity. I think Isis/Nephthys and Anubis are much more associated with the funerary rites.

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2012, 12:17:02 pm »
Quote from: WhiteWolf;73893
I think I'll start with:
Anubis, Upwawet, and Other Deities: Personal Worship and Official Religion in Ancient Egypt

 
That is a very good one to start out with. :) Just bear in mind that it's actually a companion catalog to a special exhibit at the Cairo Museum rather than a full on book. It has three essays and then a pretty awesome 'taster' of the objects from the Salakhana Trove.
In Jackal-Infested Waters - The continuing adventures...
Per-Sabu.org - More jackals than you can shake a stick at.

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2012, 01:43:38 pm »
Quote from: Bezenwepwy;73335
It could be either/or. That particular statue also conveniently avoids the whole 'being on a shrine box versus being on a standard' thing and any more funerary connotations. I have my own personal feelings that the couchant position indicates a more 'passive' mode, or perhaps 'at ease.' And that's no bad thing for a jackal who is at home in your shrine! A standing jackal is always going to be more definitively Wepwawet though.


Yeah.  Thank you.  

The "at ease" is making me think of Kwan Yin's "at ease" pose.  Now I'm thinking of Wepwawet dressed like a monk.
I am the Goddess of Who I can Become. I mix the magic of the sorceress with the blade of a warrior. I walk the liminal pathways to see the face of the Goddess, both terrible and kind. As She stares back at me, I tremble in awe and ecstasy.  --SatAset

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Re: Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2012, 11:21:48 am »
Quote from: Bezenwepwy;73891

What pre-dynastic association between Osiris and Wepwawet? I'm not an expert on Osiris, but in pre-dynastic times wasn't he mainly just an agricultural/fertility deity? It wasn't until the Pyramid Texts and his coming to Abydos that the connection between him and Wepwawet is really established. The first god of the dead, the one whom the deceased originally took on the appearance and aspects of, was the jackal Khentyamentiu (the UR-form of Anubis.)

 
Most Egyptologists state that we have little to no (read: absolutely nothing) information on Osiris before the PT. Which is what makes his origins so slippery.

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