collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?  (Read 2548 times)

Helmsman_of_Inepu

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 159
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« on: September 15, 2011, 10:26:46 pm »
I'm reading Ian Assmann's Mind of Egypt, chapter 13- Representation, Mediacy, the 'Riven World,' and the Problem of Evil. He says:

Quote

... In the Egyptian view, divine presence was by no means a natural, given fact of life. The Egyptians did not feel close to their gods in the same way as the Greeks did, at least if their literary works are anything to go by. They were not in a constant state of anticipation about encountering some god in the shape of a brook, or a tree, a bird, a dream, or a man. The gods were remote and concealed from view on account of the tragic dissociation described in the Book of the Heavenly Cow.


He goes on to say that the Pharaoh served as the representative of the Netjeru.

I'm wondering if this is borne out elsewhere with surviving material. That ordinary rank-and-file Egyptians didn't have direct contact with the Netjeru. Outside of fictional works like the Shipwrecked Sailor. Any thoughts?
Kemetic Reconaissance blog.
ShrineBeautiful blog. Inspiring, enchanting sacred spaces.
FlameKeeping- Open Source Spirituality!

Darkhawk

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2011, 10:56:07 pm »
Quote from: Helmsman_of_Inepu;20380

I'm wondering if this is borne out elsewhere with surviving material. That ordinary rank-and-file Egyptians didn't have direct contact with the Netjeru. Outside of fictional works like the Shipwrecked Sailor. Any thoughts?

 
I've seen people say that, but I don't really see it making sense.

We have people naming themselves in relationships with the gods left and right, the occasional story in which someone reports a direct encounter with a god (Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor), a bit of a surviving dream book in which someone has such a close relationship with Hwt-Hrw in dreams that he refers to Her by a pet name....

I was reading Frankfort recently, and right after citing a lengthy prayer poem in which someone gives profuse thanks to a specific goddess for a personal intervention very much within her specific personal domain, he says something about how the Egyptians didn't have any personal connection with any of their vague, undifferentiated deities.  Whut?

I think a lot of people expect such things to have specific forms and can't see things that are framed otherwise.  Also, Egyptology as a whole is dominated by a prevalent attitude that There Was No Mysticism In Ancient Egypt, What Kind Of Pyramidiot Do You Think We Are?!, so stuff that looks pretty blatant to me has to be written off.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Helmsman_of_Inepu

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 159
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2011, 10:51:37 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;20383
I was reading Frankfort recently, and right after citing a lengthy prayer poem in which someone gives profuse thanks to a specific goddess for a personal intervention very much within her specific personal domain, he says something about how the Egyptians didn't have any personal connection with any of their vague, undifferentiated deities.  Whut?

 
Well, what I'm trying to ferret out is the presence or absence of a "god radio" in the heads of most Egyptians. Two-way communication.

I see a difference in that and the "close relationship".

In modern terms, I might be a total fan of some singer. I get every recording she does, set up my own devotional website, talk with other crazed fans on forums, draw fan art, etc, etc. I might even send in and get a signed photo.

That's not quite the same thing as having her read and respond to my comments, remember that I'm the only one who liked her song about tree sloths, actually being pleased to meet me at a concert.

For example, if I ask Wepy for something that was unlikely to happen by chance, do offerings and petitions for an extended period of time, then BAM! It actually works, sure, I am going to thank him for a longer period than I pestered him, put it on my blog, etc. If I wanted something else, I might have asked Bast, Khnum, or even Hatmehit. They're not vague and undifferentiated in my mind. I do feel a connection to them, but I'm not getting anything back but that BAM! (and getting that is thrilling!) That could be similar to the thing Frankfort described.

So, to further refine it, is there anything ancient that is more like you have with Neb.y, and like 98% of the KO people have with their parent deities? Or is that new, or at least a lot more common?

Yeah, the mysticism = pyramidiot thing. Bleah.
Kemetic Reconaissance blog.
ShrineBeautiful blog. Inspiring, enchanting sacred spaces.
FlameKeeping- Open Source Spirituality!

Bezenwepwy

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 79
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://nefersedt.livejournal.com
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2011, 11:28:48 am »
Quote from: Helmsman_of_Inepu;20435
Well, what I'm trying to ferret out is the presence or absence of a "god radio" in the heads of most Egyptians. Two-way communication.

 
The topic of "personal piety" really is one that's only now getting acknowledged now. There's a new generation of Egyptologists who are a lot more accepting of the idea and also that of mysticism.

I think it is very telling that when someone was expressing their devotion privately, they were said to be "in the arm" of the deity. I'm not sure such a phrase would be used if it was a one-way thing.

Also, in dream interpretation, it would be the person who has the question and who is seeking the oracle who would be the one to do the dreaming, IIRC. It would then be the priests who had the knowledge to interpret the dream itself.
In Jackal-Infested Waters - The continuing adventures...
Per-Sabu.org - More jackals than you can shake a stick at.

Darkhawk

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2011, 11:35:18 am »
Quote from: Helmsman_of_Inepu;20435

So, to further refine it, is there anything ancient that is more like you have with Neb.y, and like 98% of the KO people have with their parent deities? Or is that new, or at least a lot more common?

 
I suspect we're very unlikely to know.

One thing I would note: I consider it far more likely that people who actually expend the effort to a specific religion to have some sort of a specific reason backing that up, and among the reasons that can be numbered there is a mystical experience.  Most people are content enough with their culture-of-origin's practices that they don't seek something else, which means people who don't have some sort of reason to go elsewhere probably won't.  In ancient times those people would follow the forms required but not do anything above and beyond, just like modern people do, and wouldn't spend a lot of time thinking about it.

(People who kvetch about the density of mystics in modern paganism don't seem to think about this much.  But seriously: if the gods want anyone paying Them specific heed, they are going to have to start with people who pick up the bloody godphone.)

At the same time, there exist ancient texts that talk about appearances of gods, mystical experiences, and so on, which indicates to me that a) these things happened and b) they were considered normal enough (at least for the king) that they didn't fall into the memory hole that the Egyptians assigned to unique events.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Helmsman_of_Inepu

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 159
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2011, 12:18:57 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;20442
I suspect we're very unlikely to know....At the same time, there exist ancient texts that talk about appearances of gods, mystical experiences, and so on, which indicates to me that a) these things happened and b) they were considered normal enough (at least for the king) that they didn't fall into the memory hole that the Egyptians assigned to unique events.

 
I guess that makes sense. Especially the business of people just rolling along, doing the equivalent of going to church on Easter and Christmas (if that). It falls into the same fluffy trap as saying that the Native Americans were a deeply spiritual people, the ancient Egyptians didn't fear death, etc, etc. Most of them had their heads up their butts, just like we do.

I guess we are just an extremely weird subset. Only a tiny number of people will do any spiritual stuff. Only a tiny number of those will go outside their general culture and do anything 'pagan,' and only a tiny, microscopic percentage of those is going to be in Kemetic Recon-Whatever-You-Call-It. Trying to figure anything general out of a self-selected population of a few hundred people? Maybe not.
Kemetic Reconaissance blog.
ShrineBeautiful blog. Inspiring, enchanting sacred spaces.
FlameKeeping- Open Source Spirituality!

Meritmut

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 154
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2011, 03:12:19 am »
Quote from: Helmsman_of_Inepu;20380
I'm reading Ian Assmann's Mind of Egypt, chapter 13- Representation, Mediacy, the 'Riven World,' and the Problem of Evil. He says:



He goes on to say that the Pharaoh served as the representative of the Netjeru.

I'm wondering if this is borne out elsewhere with surviving material. That ordinary rank-and-file Egyptians didn't have direct contact with the Netjeru. Outside of fictional works like the Shipwrecked Sailor. Any thoughts?

 
One of the tomb inscriptions I have found to Mut gives me the impression of a very close relationship. "And he [Kiki] found Mut at the head of the gods, Fate and fortune in her hand, Lifetime and breath of life are hers to command...I have not chosen a protector among men. I have not sought myself a protector among the great...My heart is filled with my mistress. I have no fear of anyone. I spend the night in quiet sleep, because I have a protector. ("Of God and Gods", Jan Assmann, p. 83-84, University of Wisconsin Press, 2008)" The part of my heart is filled with my mistress, I mean how is that not a closeness? Just because the Ancients understood their Gods to be completely beyond our comprehension and didn't see them as lustful human like Gods running amok doesn't mean they were any less a part of their daily lives. I mean I can't see the wind but I know it is around me and it is a part of my world.

Helmsman_of_Inepu

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 159
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2011, 07:35:27 am »
Quote from: Meritmut;25046
One of the tomb inscriptions I have found to Mut gives me the impression of a very close relationship. "And he [Kiki] found Mut at the head of the gods, Fate and fortune in her hand, Lifetime and breath of life are hers to command...I have not chosen a protector among men. I have not sought myself a protector among the great...My heart is filled with my mistress. I have no fear of anyone. I spend the night in quiet sleep, because I have a protector.

 
I just read a section about Kiki, willing his entire estate to Mut in Mind of Egypt.
Kemetic Reconaissance blog.
ShrineBeautiful blog. Inspiring, enchanting sacred spaces.
FlameKeeping- Open Source Spirituality!

SatSekhem

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 995
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
    • http://satsekhem.wordpress.com/
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2011, 01:43:18 pm »
Quote from: Helmsman_of_Inepu;20380
I'm reading Ian Assmann's Mind of Egypt, chapter 13- Representation, Mediacy, the 'Riven World,' and the Problem of Evil. He says:



He goes on to say that the Pharaoh served as the representative of the Netjeru.

I'm wondering if this is borne out elsewhere with surviving material. That ordinary rank-and-file Egyptians didn't have direct contact with the Netjeru. Outside of fictional works like the Shipwrecked Sailor. Any thoughts?

 
This isn't the first time that I've seen this said and every time I see it, I completely disagree.

The rank-and-file had plenty of connection with their gods, in numerous forms. They had shrines in their homes, amulets of protection (Tawaret, Bes, and Heru the Younger being the most prominent that I can think of off the top of my head), wands, as well as protective hymns. They had quick access to magicians and healers who held an even closer relationship with the gods. Their names reflect relationships with the gods (Amunhotep, for example). I mean, to just go off and say, "They weren't close like the Greeks" is like saying that I'm not close with my mother like my brother is because I live 2000 miles away from her and he doesn't. It doesn't signify, at all.

Now, if what the guy is getting at is that the Holy-of-Holies was barred to the rank-and-file, then I agree. However, that has nothing to do with their relationship on a personal level, either. It merely means that not every ancient Egyptian was a priest.

Where did he get this information, by the way?
Religious Blog
Regular Blog

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams

Meritmut

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 154
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2011, 06:04:24 pm »
Quote from: Helmsman_of_Inepu;25052
I just read a section about Kiki, willing his entire estate to Mut in Mind of Egypt.

 
I've been wanting to get that book, I just don't see with all these clear representations you can say they weren't close to their Gods.

Meritmut

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 154
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2011, 06:08:03 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;25092
This isn't the first time that I've seen this said and every time I see it, I completely disagree.

The rank-and-file had plenty of connection with their gods, in numerous forms. They had shrines in their homes, amulets of protection (Tawaret, Bes, and Heru the Younger being the most prominent that I can think of off the top of my head), wands, as well as protective hymns. They had quick access to magicians and healers who held an even closer relationship with the gods. Their names reflect relationships with the gods (Amunhotep, for example). I mean, to just go off and say, "They weren't close like the Greeks" is like saying that I'm not close with my mother like my brother is because I live 2000 miles away from her and he doesn't. It doesn't signify, at all.

Now, if what the guy is getting at is that the Holy-of-Holies was barred to the rank-and-file, then I agree. However, that has nothing to do with their relationship on a personal level, either. It merely means that not every ancient Egyptian was a priest.

Where did he get this information, by the way?

 
And if they were comparing the Greek and Roman religions, the inner most sanctum of their temples were also off limits to anyone but their priests as well, especially the Romans.

Darkhawk

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2011, 07:17:40 pm »
Quote from: Meritmut;25115
I've been wanting to get that book, I just don't see with all these clear representations you can say they weren't close to their Gods.

 
Egyptology is neurotic.

Because the discipline started developing at the same time as the heyday of stuff like the Golden Dawn, Theosophy, and other semi-esoteric Stuff, much of which claimed to be revealing the Twoo Mysterees Of Ainshunt Egypt, the early Egyptologists decided that in order to sound credible as historians and scientists and anthropologists and all, they had to not only be hardcore materialists, but also insist that the ancients were hardcore materialists.

The discipline is starting to recover from that, but it's still largely the mainstream position that there was no gnosis in Egypt.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Meritmut

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 154
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ancients communicating with the Netjeru?
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2011, 01:50:27 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;25134
Egyptology is neurotic.

Because the discipline started developing at the same time as the heyday of stuff like the Golden Dawn, Theosophy, and other semi-esoteric Stuff, much of which claimed to be revealing the Twoo Mysterees Of Ainshunt Egypt, the early Egyptologists decided that in order to sound credible as historians and scientists and anthropologists and all, they had to not only be hardcore materialists, but also insist that the ancients were hardcore materialists.

The discipline is starting to recover from that, but it's still largely the mainstream position that there was no gnosis in Egypt.

 
I see, I will keep this in mind when reading the scholarly texts. I find reading the Hymns have really helped shaped my faith so far.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
20 Replies
2120 Views
Last post October 01, 2012, 04:02:56 pm
by OceanPhoenix
1 Replies
2108 Views
Last post May 14, 2014, 10:11:11 am
by veggiewolf
7 Replies
1124 Views
Last post January 25, 2015, 04:31:11 pm
by desiibabii2008
2 Replies
954 Views
Last post July 14, 2015, 07:11:39 pm
by Sefiru
3 Replies
1098 Views
Last post August 21, 2015, 11:30:19 am
by veggiewolf

Special Interest Group

Warning: You are currently in a Special Interest Group on the message board with special rules and focused discussions.

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 34
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall