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Author Topic: What is the Reality of Science?  (Read 6961 times)

pantodragon

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What is the Reality of Science?
« on: February 28, 2013, 11:04:26 am »
What is science?  Is it the best way to find out about the world we live in?  Is it the honest pursuit of knowledge?

The Faust legend is the truth about science: Faust sold his soul to the Devil for the sake of gaining all the knowledge in the world.  To be a scientist is to sell your soul to the Devil for the sake of knowledge.  This obviously requires a bit of explanation.

As a human being one is equipped with all sorts of senses that allow one to interact with the world, to ‘communicate’ with the world and everything in it.  The most obvious are the five senses that interact with the ‘real’ world: sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell.  These are the easy ones, the undeniable, obvious ones.  But there are far more, the subtle ones, the ones that see below the surface of things, detect that which is not ‘present’ to the basic five senses, and these are the feelings, intuition and what one might call ‘sensations’.

Take, for example, feelings.  Suppose one is talking to someone and one becomes angry but there is no apparent reason for the anger.  If one confesses to the anger one would be called grumpy, or classed as an angry person, as though it is all just a matter of personality.  But this is not so.  Anger happens for a reason.  If you get angry talking to someone it is because they are doing something bad to you, even though you cannot see what that is.  

People can act a part, and that act can be very convincing, but you cannot fool the feelings.  So, someone might sound very pleasant, even charming, but they might well be trying to use their charm to manipulate others emotionally, to get attention, or to get them to do things for them.  This is where one’s feelings tell one that something is amiss, because your feeling detect INTENTION, they ‘see’ below the surface and sense what other people are REALLY about.

Then there is intuition.  Intuition is far more than just a ‘gut’ feeling.  Intuitions are the outcome of one’s subconscious ‘thinking’, the sophisticated type of thinking that is way beyond anything that computers can, or ever will, be able to do.  Intuition collects all one’s experiences, all one has learned from books or any other source, it listens to one’s ‘heart’ and collects the wisdom of dreams, it sees and understands what the feelings are saying, and from all that, in a flash, with a speed that would shame any computer, it tells one how to react in any situation; or it might deliver a flash of understanding or insight.  There is nothing more powerful than intuition.

Then there is one’s heart.  This is about the things one cares about and it is about likes and dislikes.  These are the things that make a person who they are.  They express one’s spirit.  There is an expression, ‘to become dispirited’, which means to lose interest in life, to lose motivation, to become depressed.  This is very accurate: if you do not pay heed to your spirit, do not nurture it, then you WILL lose interest in life.  And paying heed to your spirit means following your ‘heart’, in means allowing your own likes and dislikes, and your own special interest to lead you at all times.  That means that instead of following fashion, you develop your own tastes, whether it be in clothes, interior decoration, choice of interests or whatever.  You must ignore all advertising.  You must ignore all peer pressure.  You must listen only to your own heart.

If you ignore your heart then, apart from denying your own spirit, you also deny your own ‘destiny’.  Your destiny is about your dreams.  If as a child, or young person, you have a dream or ambition, (it can be anything, but it must come from the heart, so, e.g. dreaming of becoming a ‘star’ is not a ‘real’ dream, because it is not ‘from the heart’ – these sorts of ambitions are about competition and power, and have nothing to do with the heart.); so, if you have a dream, it is the ‘job’ of ‘fate’ to see to it that your dream comes true.  This means that fate has to plot a course through life that will give you all the experiences and learning opportunities that will enable you to achieve your dream.  If you follow your heart then you will actually be following the path fate has laid out for you, and you will finally realise your dreams.  If you do not follow your heart, then you will not achieve your dreams.

So, in the first place, there is a great deal more in the ‘world’ than scientific instruments can detect, and, in the second place, the ‘heartlessness’ of science denies the human spirit.  This is Faust: science will gain you knowledge, but in order to gain the knowledge of science you have to ignore your own heart and spirit, and that amounts to selling your soul.  But the legend goes further: it is to The Devil that Faust sells his soul.  This is because the source of all good is also in the heart and spirit.  It is the heart and spirit that tell you what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong, and, what’s more, if you follow the heart and spirit, then there is no conflict with other people – you will never find that what is good for you is bad for someone else.  Existence is wonderfully designed such that THERE IS NO CONFLICT.   The problems we encounter, the conflicts of interest, arise because people do NOT listen to their hearts and spirits.  So to deny the heart and spirit is to lose touch with right and wrong.  It is to lose that which knows what is good, and that is why it was the Devil to whom Faust sold his soul.

So science is totally inadequate as a means of dealing with the world, it cannot achieve real understanding or insight, it does not know what life is about, and it cannot tell right from wrong.

Gilbride

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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2013, 11:09:04 am »
Quote from: pantodragon;98895
Anger happens for a reason.  If you get angry talking to someone it is because they are doing something bad to you, even though you cannot see what that is.


So you think that anger is an infallible way of detecting the real intentions of others? I'm afraid that's a very questionable assumption...

HeartShadow

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What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2013, 11:23:22 am »
Quote from: pantodragon;98895
What is science?  Is it the best way to find out about the world we live in?  Is it the honest pursuit of knowledge?

The Faust legend is the truth about science: Faust sold his soul to the Devil for the sake of gaining all the knowledge in the world.  To be a scientist is to sell your soul to the Devil for the sake of knowledge.  This obviously requires a bit of explanation.

But my heart tells me to pursue knowledge!  What now?

Sage

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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 11:29:49 am »
Quote from: pantodragon;98895


 
Sounds like you're demonizing science because you don't understand it. Good job, bro.
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

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woodhick

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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 11:46:08 am »
Quote from: pantodragon;98895
What is science?  Is it the best way to find out about the world we live in?  Is it the honest pursuit of knowledge?

The Faust legend is the truth about science: Faust sold his soul to the Devil for the sake of gaining all the knowledge in the world.  To be a scientist is to sell your soul to the Devil for the sake of knowledge.  This obviously requires a bit of explanation.
...


So science is totally inadequate as a means of dealing with the world, it cannot achieve real understanding or insight, it does not know what life is about, and it cannot tell right from wrong.

 

I really don't think you know what science is...  

By definition science is the study of life. The questions that are asked are how and why. There are no clear cut answers and the more that is found out, the more our perceptions of how things are change. You will never know it all, and all ethical scientists know this. You seem to be confusing learning with science. All scientists want to continue to learn, the learning is never done. The quest for knowledge is not to know everything there is to know about everything, neither is it for power.  Where you are right is that science cannot tell right from wrong. It simply tells what is going on. There is no clear answer about what is right or wrong for anything, in any discipline (religious or not). What is right and wrong is just perceptions.

It is my understanding that Faust was a scientist who after getting frustrated with his scant results/revolutions, made a deal with the devil for ultimate knowledge. He wasted this "knowledge" on worthless things and was sent to hell for his actions.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but if science is inadequate then you can never ask yourself why or how something is happening, because then you would be a hypocrite.
Where the wild things are is where I am most at home." - Kim Antieau

Megatherium

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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 12:10:54 pm »
Quote from: pantodragon;98895

If you ignore your heart then, apart from denying your own spirit, you also deny your own ‘destiny’.  Your destiny is about your dreams.  If as a child, or young person, you have a dream or ambition, (it can be anything, but it must come from the heart, so, e.g. dreaming of becoming a ‘star’ is not a ‘real’ dream, because it is not ‘from the heart’ – these sorts of ambitions are about competition and power, and have nothing to do with the heart.); so, if you have a dream, it is the ‘job’ of ‘fate’ to see to it that your dream comes true.  This means that fate has to plot a course through life that will give you all the experiences and learning opportunities that will enable you to achieve your dream.  If you follow your heart then you will actually be following the path fate has laid out for you, and you will finally realise your dreams.  If you do not follow your heart, then you will not achieve your dreams.


You know what is probably a very common "dream" for many people? Seeing their children live to be adults. Unfortunately, for most of human history, probably the majority of children died before they did so. Let's also not forget the uncountable number of woman who died in childbirth, or other good people who had the "dream" of providing enough food for their families, only to watch them starve to death when resources got scarce. Any notion that the universe or "fate" wants you to achieve your dreams has to be reconciled with the fact that a huge number of the humans who have ever existed led lives of suffering and deprivation. Did fate not care about these people? Or were they not just following their hearts strongly enough?
 


Quote from: pantodragon;98895

So science is totally inadequate as a means of dealing with the world, it cannot achieve real understanding or insight, it does not know what life is about, and it cannot tell right from wrong.


Well of course science doesn't tell you "right from wrong". So what? Religion can't tell you how to design an airplane. The utility of science is not morality, and there isn't any reason to expect that it should be, any more than the purpose of religion is engineering.
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yewberry

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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2013, 12:21:30 pm »
Quote from: pantodragon;98895
What is science?

I'll counter with my own question:

What is the point of posting the same/same sort of screed, seemingly randomly, all over the Interwebz?

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« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 12:22:26 pm by yewberry »

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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2013, 12:25:28 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;98923
I'll counter with my own question:

What is the point of posting the same/same sort of screed, seemingly randomly, all over the Interwebz?

Brina

ETA:  You do realize you don't have to use the same screen name on every message board, right?  Mix it up, have fun!

 
How deep does this go?
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

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yewberry

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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2013, 12:27:53 pm »
Quote from: Sage;98924
How deep does this go?


Did I blow your mind?

Brina

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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2013, 01:52:10 pm »
Quote from: pantodragon;98895

So, in the first place, there is a great deal more in the ‘world’ than scientific instruments can detect, and, in the second place, the ‘heartlessness’ of science denies the human spirit.  

....


So science is totally inadequate as a means of dealing with the world, it cannot achieve real understanding or insight, it does not know what life is about, and it cannot tell right from wrong.

 
First off, I will preface this by saying I am a scientist. Specifically, I am a geologist. I have been studying the Earth for many years, specifically how minerals form. Oddly enough, taking Physics when I was 16 was what made me start to believe in something more than the religion I was raised in. Physics tells us that when you break down all matter it breaks down like this:

Molecule -> Atom -> Sub Atomic Particles -> Quarks -> Energy

Now the basis of almost every magical tradition is the transference of energy. While there are not any definitive scientific links, as a scientist I also accept that there are new discoveries to be made. Nothing in science is concrete, because scientists should be open to the fact any theory can be changed with advances in science and understanding.

So no, you don't have to sell your soul to be a scientist. You just have to acknowledge that not everything can be explained by science -- yet.
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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2013, 05:53:37 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;98923
What is the point of posting the same/same sort of screed, seemingly randomly, all over the Interwebz?

Perhaps he wants to see how many people will agree with him. I'm afraid he will not find many here -- for any of the threads I've seen him start. Oh well, perhaps he'll have better luck on some of those other boards.
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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2013, 05:57:35 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;98901
But my heart tells me to pursue knowledge!  What now?



What does your butt tell you?



*Edit: this is my 777th post.  Oooooooooo....
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 05:58:33 pm by MadZealot »
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HeartShadow

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What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2013, 06:10:49 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;98995


What does your butt tell you?



*Edit: this is my 777th post.  Oooooooooo....

It speaketh not, butt only trumpets.

yewberry

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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2013, 06:13:14 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;99001
It speaketh not, butt only trumpets.




Brina

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Re: What is the Reality of Science?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2013, 06:15:20 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;99001
It speaketh not, butt only trumpets.

 
Now that's just assinine.
Superman is uncircumcised. Change my mind.

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