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Author Topic: Crisis of faith  (Read 5157 times)

Nachtigall

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2012, 03:45:09 pm »
Quote from: outlaw393;44949
I could be wrong about him being my patron, too. It's not the first time I was wrong about a god being my patron. Of course, if I'm wrong about Odin, that means I don't have a patron. I've been walking the Pagan path one way or another for six years, and I always thought that every Pagan had a patron god. Maybe I was wrong.


Maybe you were. And maybe, even if he is your patron, you have to learn to be independent, even from him.
Looking into other gods may be useful (I personally am convinced, that paying some attention to the whole pantheon of your choice, not just to few selected deities, is very important and rewarding), but it also may be, that you have to look into yourself, or into the "mundane" world to balance out your spiritual aspirations.

"As above, so below" is a very useful principle.

outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2012, 04:06:29 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;44965
Yes, you were wrong.

Many of the pagan religions don't require that one have a patron, and for some pagan paths, the concept is pretty much meaningless to that path.

Many of those who do have patrons chose their patron(s), rather than being chosen - often this is because the deity's spheres of interest included something the practitioner does:  hir profession, f'ex.  They may never experience direct interaction; for many, the main way they know they haven't made a mistake in their choice is that the deity doesn't reject their attentions.

Very very few people get an actual thwap, where the deity chooses them.  There are quite a few of us here on TC, but that's unusual - and even then, I'm pretty sure there are more people here who haven't had that experience.  Even of those who have, many have direct interaction with their patrons only very occasionally.

Sunflower

 
This is a belief I carry, that every Pagan has a patron. It's just a matter of finding who they are.

There are no paths that I know of that "requires" any of it's followers to have a patron, and certainly not mine.

Wrong about my belief? That's not the right wording. I might have the wrong god, but I'm not "wrong" about holding my belief.

That's certainly not a response I expected.
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outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2012, 04:17:51 pm »
Quote from: Nachtigall;44967
Maybe you were. And maybe, even if he is your patron, you have to learn to be independent, even from him.
Looking into other gods may be useful (I personally am convinced, that paying some attention to the whole pantheon of your choice, not just to few selected deities, is very important and rewarding), but it also may be, that you have to look into yourself, or into the "mundane" world to balance out your spiritual aspirations.

"As above, so below" is a very useful principle.


I am independent. That's not the issue here.

The rest of the pantheons of choice don't interact with me and likewise seem to have no interest in me. Years ago I realized that prayers to those gods were empty and meaningless, and resulted in no real results (a presence, a sign, an answer...) so I follow the Gods that have called me, that have given me one of the three things mentioned above.
 
My next task to to find my patron. And if I re-find Odin, so be it. That will only strengthen my resolve to establish a decent relationship with him.

When searching for my patron, I will take into account the possibility that he is one of the gods that I currently don't follow.

Thanks!
Conformity is the death of individualism

veggiewolf

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2012, 04:24:41 pm »
Quote from: outlaw393;44971
This is a belief I carry, that every Pagan has a patron. It's just a matter of finding who they are.

There are no paths that I know of that "requires" any of it's followers to have a patron, and certainly not mine.

Wrong about my belief? That's not the right wording. I might have the wrong god, but I'm not "wrong" about holding my belief.

That's certainly not a response I expected.


You're not wrong about holding a belief - the belief you hold is not correct, based on evidence.  There are pagans out there without patrons...therefore, not every pagan has a patron.
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Fier

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2012, 04:31:37 pm »
Quote from: outlaw393;44949
I always thought that every Pagan had a patron god.

 
I do not have a patron.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2012, 04:34:53 pm »
Quote from: Nachtigall;44967
Maybe you were. And maybe, even if he is your patron, you have to learn to be independent, even from him.


Outlaw, is it any coincidence that when you were in a relationship and happy with your  life that you were also posting on here how sure you were of your beliefs and happiness with your gods? Then you went through a breakup and suddenly you're posting again about (another) crisis of faith.

What is it that you truly expect from the gods? Are your expectations fair?
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Nachtigall

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2012, 05:29:17 pm »
Quote from: outlaw393;44973
Years ago I realized that prayers to those gods were empty and meaningless, and resulted in no real results (a presence, a sign, an answer...) so I follow the Gods that have called me, that have given me one of the three things mentioned above.
 

 
That's one of the problems, in my opinion - people assume, that unless they get an intense mystical experience while praying to the gods, the prayers and rituals are meaningless. Expecting too much often they may miss the more subtle changes, that these prayers cause in them.

outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2012, 05:53:55 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;44974
You're not wrong about holding a belief - the belief you hold is not correct, based on evidence.  There are pagans out there without patrons...therefore, not every pagan has a patron.


Well it's up to each individual to find their patron, and if they don't find one, well perhaps they were unable to find whoever it was.
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outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2012, 05:57:49 pm »
Quote from: Nachtigall;44984
That's one of the problems, in my opinion - people assume, that unless they get an intense mystical experience while praying to the gods, the prayers and rituals are meaningless. Expecting too much often they may miss the more subtle changes, that these prayers cause in them.


Well I'm not expecting an "intense mystical experience". What I expect is very little in return.
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Starglade

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2012, 06:00:57 pm »
Quote from: outlaw393;44987
Well it's up to each individual to find their patron, and if they don't find one, well perhaps they were unable to find whoever it was.


Hm. During the couple of decades when I was wiccish, I never had a patron, nor did I think I was supposed to, nor did I feel the need to, nor did anyone tell me I should, nor . . . I'll stop there. Clearly, you believe that pagans should have patrons. Please realize that not all pagans do, nor do all pagans think they should.

If *you* feel you need one, as it seems you do from reading this thread, then I wish you good journeys in finding whoever it is.
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outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2012, 06:12:55 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;44977
Outlaw, is it any coincidence that when you were in a relationship and happy with your life that you were also posting on here how sure you were of your beliefs and happiness with your gods? Then you went through a breakup and suddenly you're posting again about (another) crisis of faith.

What is it that you truly expect from the gods? Are your expectations fair?


No, it's not a coincidence. Being with another Wiccan was awesome and helped me walk the path with much more confidence. It also gave me the chance to speak with someone else I trusted face to face about spiritual matters. Now I no longer have that resource (even though we remained friends). While the breakup wasn't the inciting incident, it certainly doesn't help either.

So, metaphorically, while the breakup didn't start the fire, it was the gasoline that helped it along.

My expectations of the gods? Pretty much the same as for anyone who'd want a relationship with me. Be around. Be honest. If you say you're going to do something, do it. Return my calls. Call me sometimes. If you love me, say so. Be patient. (and I know not all gods are patient) Get to know me and don't be afraid in helping me get to know you.

Those are a few I can think of off the top of my head. :)
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outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2012, 06:14:34 pm »
Quote from: Starglade;44990
Hm. During the couple of decades when I was wiccish, I never had a patron, nor did I think I was supposed to, nor did I feel the need to, nor did anyone tell me I should, nor . . . I'll stop there. Clearly, you believe that pagans should have patrons. Please realize that not all pagans do, nor do all pagans think they should.

If *you* feel you need one, as it seems you do from reading this thread, then I wish you good journeys in finding whoever it is.


I don't believe anyone is supposed to. It's all up to the individual and their beliefs. If they feel they want one, they should seek one. If not, so be it.

I've been seeking a patron for a long time. But honestly this far into the path never thought I'd have to re-seek one, I thought I found him.
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cigfran

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2012, 10:17:29 pm »
Quote from: outlaw393;44991
My expectations of the gods? Pretty much the same as for anyone who'd want a relationship with me. Be around. Be honest. If you say you're going to do something, do it. Return my calls. Call me sometimes. If you love me, say so. Be patient. (and I know not all gods are patient) Get to know me and don't be afraid in helping me get to know you.


I hope you'll not take offense, but this sounds to me like a surrogate for a normal human relationship.

outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2012, 10:36:44 pm »
Quote from: cigfran;45011
I hope you'll not take offense, but this sounds to me like a surrogate for a normal human relationship.

It's not a replacement for a human relationship. No offense taken. But the point was, that my expectations are about the same. I expect the same from the gods as I would from my human relationships. Though my expectations may be higher, because the gods are capable of more than humans are. :)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 10:38:51 pm by outlaw393 »
Conformity is the death of individualism

monsnoleedra

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2012, 12:05:36 am »
Quote from: outlaw393;45013
It's not a replacement for a human relationship. No offense taken. But the point was, that my expectations are about the same. I expect the same from the gods as I would from my human relationships. Though my expectations may be higher, because the gods are capable of more than humans are. :)


I've followed this with a bit of passing interest but what your asking for is a pet or to be a pet.  It seems a bit arrogaunt to me to even think any god should treat you as if you were in a personal one on one relationship with them.  Especially any from the Nordic / Teutonic / Icelandic pantheons where they were more detached from their followers and personal strength seemed to be one of the proving factors in where one went upon death.

I can't think of a single Edda or Saga that shows such a relationship between god / goddess and a practitioner.  Perhaps more realistic if one is choosen to be a hero and face great threats and horrible odds with the likelyhood of death as its reward.  But then those are always identifed at birth by signs and omens, not simply someone who read some books and says they were choosen.

I wish you luck in your endeavors but I would never live in your world for my gods / goddesses demand strength and an ability to do as they ask but not require them to hold my hand and pat my head.

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