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Author Topic: Crisis of faith  (Read 5169 times)

outlaw393

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Crisis of faith
« on: March 01, 2012, 07:39:31 pm »
I find myself going through a crisis of faith again, mostly surrounding the Goddess. However I'm having issues with my Patron God too, so having issues with the whole thing.

I've been through a crisis of faith before, and the last time this happened I at least had another place to go, to fall back on, when I felt this way.

This time I'm alone, and I have nowhere to go, and no one to talk to about having a crisis of faith.

:(
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Etheric1

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2012, 02:13:47 am »
Quote from: outlaw393;44611
I find myself going through a crisis of faith again, mostly surrounding the Goddess. However I'm having issues with my Patron God too, so having issues with the whole thing.

I've been through a crisis of faith before, and the last time this happened I at least had another place to go, to fall back on, when I felt this way.

This time I'm alone, and I have nowhere to go, and no one to talk to about having a crisis of faith.

:(

I think these things are just part of the package when it comes to the religious/spiritual.  I know I go through them.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm just deluding myself and hoping for something that may or may not be true.  Our society at times seems to worship only what we can see, feel, or touch and be able to replicate that reliably.  Yet at other times, I can remember things happening that truly do reaffirm that there is at least SOMETHING out there.  

In some ways I think it is actually healthy to have these doubt phases.  I say this because I think it's important to function in this world (or plane of existence, or whatever we wish to call it) without the spiritual.  I suppose it's not unlike how a mentally healthy parent needs the child to stand on their own eventually, but at the same time remember where they came from.  And for those of us who did not or do not have a good familial relationship, we can at least try to not make the same mistakes our parents made.

I try to remember that, for all that I like to suspect and believe, ultimately I know that I do not know the whole picture.  It can be both terrifying and reassuring.

What's helped me is keeping a journal of experiences where I've felt I've experienced something greater than me.  That way I can go back and look at those things and try to overcome my doubts.  

I don't believe these times are put forth as a deliberate test, but simply a consequence of living in our bodies in this life we live.  I don't think the gods are petty in nature and require us to continually prove our loyalty to them, if they did, such beings would strike me as not all that evolved.  Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure they appreciate prayers, offerings, etc, and I do think they are accessible to us, but I also think that such beings also have responsibilities that are bigger than us and if we call to them and they can't pickup their phone, it's probably not because they don't like us anymore.  

I often wonder what it would be like if we were in their shoes and had a whole bunch of people asking us for favors or wanting attention.  I'm no evolved being, but I'm sure there are complexities at work we are not aware of, nor could fully comprehend.  Sometimes we just have to handle our stuff ourselves, and this can be very empowering.

In short, while annoying and discouraging, I'm sure this crisis will pass for you. ;) When I try to walk away from the spiritual, I often find I'm snapped back to it eventually.  Even when I get fed up with it all and want nothing to do with it, for some reason I just can't let it go.  It's annoying, obnoxious, but at times, very rewarding and comforting when I do feel a connection to whatever the hells is out there.

Hang in there.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 02:16:50 am by Etheric1 »
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outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2012, 01:36:09 pm »
Quote from: Etheric1;44634
I think these things are just part of the package when it comes to the religious/spiritual.  I know I go through them.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm just deluding myself and hoping for something that may or may not be true.  Our society at times seems to worship only what we can see, feel, or touch and be able to replicate that reliably.  Yet at other times, I can remember things happening that truly do reaffirm that there is at least SOMETHING out there.  

In some ways I think it is actually healthy to have these doubt phases.  I say this because I think it's important to function in this world (or plane of existence, or whatever we wish to call it) without the spiritual.  I suppose it's not unlike how a mentally healthy parent needs the child to stand on their own eventually, but at the same time remember where they came from.  And for those of us who did not or do not have a good familial relationship, we can at least try to not make the same mistakes our parents made.

I try to remember that, for all that I like to suspect and believe, ultimately I know that I do not know the whole picture.  It can be both terrifying and reassuring.

What's helped me is keeping a journal of experiences where I've felt I've experienced something greater than me.  That way I can go back and look at those things and try to overcome my doubts.  

I don't believe these times are put forth as a deliberate test, but simply a consequence of living in our bodies in this life we live.  I don't think the gods are petty in nature and require us to continually prove our loyalty to them, if they did, such beings would strike me as not all that evolved.  Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure they appreciate prayers, offerings, etc, and I do think they are accessible to us, but I also think that such beings also have responsibilities that are bigger than us and if we call to them and they can't pickup their phone, it's probably not because they don't like us anymore.  

I often wonder what it would be like if we were in their shoes and had a whole bunch of people asking us for favors or wanting attention.  I'm no evolved being, but I'm sure there are complexities at work we are not aware of, nor could fully comprehend.  Sometimes we just have to handle our stuff ourselves, and this can be very empowering.

In short, while annoying and discouraging, I'm sure this crisis will pass for you. ;) When I try to walk away from the spiritual, I often find I'm snapped back to it eventually.  Even when I get fed up with it all and want nothing to do with it, for some reason I just can't let it go.  It's annoying, obnoxious, but at times, very rewarding and comforting when I do feel a connection to whatever the hells is out there.

Hang in there.

 
It's one thing to wonder if it's all fake, but another totally to wonder if the gods just don't care anymore. I don't think they're not real, I just wonder if they've stopped caring completely.

My Patron is a good example. I'm starting to wonder why I bother to keep following Him. I haven't seen him in years, or even a sign from him. I recently did a reliquary box in honor of him, and did a ritual to anoint it. And while I felt his presence during the ritual, he didn't seem to care about the box that I so meticulously went out searching for materials for.

But yet he has called me. I know I am one of His. But it's like, the phone will ring, but when I pick it up, there's no one on the line.

I compare him to a metaphor of an absent father, who seems to care about his child and wants to be in his life, but is either too busy with other things to be involved, or doesn't care enough to be involved.

If I was smart I'd give up and move on. Maybe there's another God either in the same pantheon or in the other pantheon I follow that cares.
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HeartShadow

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 06:47:19 am »
Quote from: outlaw393;44680
It's one thing to wonder if it's all fake, but another totally to wonder if the gods just don't care anymore. I don't think they're not real, I just wonder if they've stopped caring completely.

My Patron is a good example. I'm starting to wonder why I bother to keep following Him. I haven't seen him in years, or even a sign from him. I recently did a reliquary box in honor of him, and did a ritual to anoint it. And while I felt his presence during the ritual, he didn't seem to care about the box that I so meticulously went out searching for materials for.

But yet he has called me. I know I am one of His. But it's like, the phone will ring, but when I pick it up, there's no one on the line.

I compare him to a metaphor of an absent father, who seems to care about his child and wants to be in his life, but is either too busy with other things to be involved, or doesn't care enough to be involved.

If I was smart I'd give up and move on. Maybe there's another God either in the same pantheon or in the other pantheon I follow that cares.

 
I'm wondering if you're trying to force your relationship with Odin to fit a model that just doesn't work.

I mean - Norse gods don't tend to be about being daddy, if you're using the parent analogy.  More like the boss - you have a job, go DO it, why are you bugging me?  That kind of thing.

You know you have been chosen - that's a HELL of a lot more than most people get.  Most people just go on faith.  Demanding a god fit into the model you WANT Him to fit in .. well ... let's just see I can understand how things would go sideways.

Nachtigall

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 08:15:51 am »
Quote from: outlaw393;44680
It's one thing to wonder if it's all fake, but another totally to wonder if the gods just don't care anymore. I don't think they're not real, I just wonder if they've stopped caring completely.

My Patron is a good example. I'm starting to wonder why I bother to keep following Him. I haven't seen him in years, or even a sign from him. I recently did a reliquary box in honor of him, and did a ritual to anoint it. And while I felt his presence during the ritual, he didn't seem to care about the box that I so meticulously went out searching for materials for.

But yet he has called me. I know I am one of His. But it's like, the phone will ring, but when I pick it up, there's no one on the line.

I compare him to a metaphor of an absent father, who seems to care about his child and wants to be in his life, but is either too busy with other things to be involved, or doesn't care enough to be involved.

If I was smart I'd give up and move on. Maybe there's another God either in the same pantheon or in the other pantheon I follow that cares.


Think of what it would mean to you to be Odin's chosen. I am not really familiar with the Norse Gods... but would Odin prefer his followers to be like helpless children, waiting for his attention, or would he rather prefer them to behave like warriors?

Lets assume that he doesn't care. What would it change in your worldview? Would you behave differently in your daily life, would you have other life aspirations?

Juniperberry

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 12:46:16 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;44738
I'm wondering if you're trying to force your relationship with Odin to fit a model that just doesn't work.

I mean - Norse gods don't tend to be about being daddy, if you're using the parent analogy.  More like the boss - you have a job, go DO it, why are you bugging me?  That kind of thing.

You know you have been chosen - that's a HELL of a lot more than most people get.  Most people just go on faith.  Demanding a god fit into the model you WANT Him to fit in .. well ... let's just see I can understand how things would go sideways.


They're also not omnipresent.

He came when you did your ritual. Now he's off tending to something else.
 
Give the old guy a break.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2012, 01:05:49 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;44738
I'm wondering if you're trying to force your relationship with Odin to fit a model that just doesn't work.

I mean - Norse gods don't tend to be about being daddy, if you're using the parent analogy.  More like the boss - you have a job, go DO it, why are you bugging me?  That kind of thing.

You know you have been chosen - that's a HELL of a lot more than most people get.  Most people just go on faith.  Demanding a god fit into the model you WANT Him to fit in .. well ... let's just see I can understand how things would go sideways.


The "absent father" is nothing more than a metaphor, has nothing to do with my relationship with him.
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outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2012, 01:23:44 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;44767
They're also not omnipresent.


None of my gods are omnipresent. The only god I know that's like that is the christian god.

But why choose me and then disappear? No signs for years and barely a showing here and there. You'd think he'd at least show up and check in. But I can barely get that. I've heard of Heathens who get more and/or more spectacular signs than I ever have. And I wonder why. Those people get real affirmations of their faith, but yet I can't. :(

Quote from: Nachtigall;44754
Lets assume that he doesn't care. What would it change in your worldview? Would you behave differently in your daily life, would you have other life aspirations?


It wouldn't change a thing in those departments. But I don't think I'd follow Odin anymore. Think I'd probably walk away if he didn't care, but I know that's not the case.

In closing, I found this quote on a website after a routine Google search: http://www.ravenkindred.com/March94/Odin.html

"His record on the treatment of his followers is equally spotty. Many a hero, devoted throughout their lives to Odin, died while cursing his name. Sometimes Odin simply abandoned them to their enemies, but at other times Odin took an active part in their deaths."

Some of that I knew. Some of that I did not. Yikes.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2012, 01:38:59 pm »
Quote from: outlaw393;44772
None of my gods are omnipresent. The only god I know that's like that is the christian god.

But why choose me and then disappear? No signs for years and barely a showing here and there. You'd think he'd at least show up and check in. But I can barely get that. I've heard of Heathens who get more and/or more spectacular signs than I ever have. And I wonder why. Those people get real affirmations of their faith, but yet I can't. :(


Probably because you have a negative mindset.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2012, 01:41:22 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;44773
Probably because you have a negative mindset.


That's a possibility. But there's a possible reason for that too.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2012, 01:57:44 pm »
Quote from: outlaw393;44774
That's a possibility. But there's a possible reason for that too.

 
Great. So you know that no matter what comes into your life you're conditioned to find the negative in it. Instead of "oh, yay, Odin liked the box and was here!" you're focusing on "oh, boo, he was only here for awhile!"

That's all you. Not Odin's fault.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2012, 02:14:15 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;44777
Great. So you know that no matter what comes into your life you're conditioned to find the negative in it. Instead of "oh, yay, Odin liked the box and was here!" you're focusing on "oh, boo, he was only here for awhile!"

That's all you. Not Odin's fault.


Let me put it another way. It's all about perspective. If these other heathen accounts that you read/heard shared their experience, but then went on and on about how it wasn't enough and wasn't constant, then would it look.like a good experience?

It may seem like they have more, but you're doing a classic grass is greener bit.

And if you hadn't have mentioned your negative perception of your ritual, people would have seen your experience as profound and inspiring, too.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2012, 02:21:45 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;44777
Great. So you know that no matter what comes into your life you're conditioned to find the negative in it. Instead of "oh, yay, Odin liked the box and was here!" you're focusing on "oh, boo, he was only here for awhile!"

That's all you. Not Odin's fault.


Try clinical depression.
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outlaw393

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2012, 02:29:46 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;44779
Let me put it another way. It's all about perspective. If these other heathen accounts that you read/heard shared their experience, but then went on and on about how it wasn't enough and wasn't constant, then would it look.like a good experience?

It may seem like they have more, but you're doing a classic grass is greener bit.

And if you hadn't have mentioned your negative perception of your ritual, people would have seen your experience as profound and inspiring, too.

 
Again, perhaps. But I relate their experiences in relation to how I'd see that experience if it happened to me. If said experience happened to me, it would be profound. The ritual was not profound at all. I felt a presence. That was it. Anyone can feel a presence if they set their mind to it.

I guess the solution here is to turn to my other gods for encouragement and solace. Struggling with depression and now a crisis of faith, times are not good.

Thanks all for your replies. :)
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Juniperberry

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Re: Crisis of faith
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2012, 02:47:21 pm »
Quote from: outlaw393;44780
Try clinical depression.

 
And if Odin materialized in front of you and hung around 24/7, it wouldn't cure your depression. Your depression, in fact, would probably color your perceptions of it.

Do you see where I'm going with this? Changing gods or giving up or whatever isn't necessarily going to fix everything.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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