collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Wondering About Same-Sex Marriage in Illinois  (Read 1363 times)

Materialist

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 605
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Wondering About Same-Sex Marriage in Illinois
« on: July 09, 2013, 11:56:25 pm »
Pardon me if this doesn't come out right, my brain is hurting from trying to figure out the statutes.

Okay, the civil union act and the marriage act are identical save in two ways: the civil union act has the word "civil union" wherever the marriage act has the word "marriage" in it, and the legal age for civil union is 18, while that for marriage is 16.

So, same-sex marriage would already exist if civil unions were simply legally labeled that way. What is the point of making the distinction between a civil union and a marriage if they confer the same benefits?

The marriage law defines a legal marriage as one between persons of the opposite sex, so, why is there a constitutional amendment in the wings that would define marriage in that way  when it already is? If conservatives want to prohibit same-sex marriage then they need to re-illegalize civil unions.

It just seems so stupid to me. Human rights activists want to make same-sex marriage legal, but I think that what needs to be done is pass a bill called "Stop Pretending Civil Unions Aren't Same-Sex Marriages Act."

Hopefully someone can help me sort this out.

Sophia C

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Location: London, UK
  • *
  • Posts: 1970
  • Country: gb
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
    • http://leithincluan.wordpress.com/
  • Religion: Gaelic-tinged polytheism, quite attached to Cailleach Bhearra, Narnian heretic, some Christian stuff
  • Preferred Pronouns: They/them
Re: Wondering About Same-Sex Marriage in Illinois
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2013, 03:08:25 am »
Quote from: Materialist;115092
What is the point of making the distinction between a civil union and a marriage if they confer the same benefits?

Segregation is not usually considered a good thing.

We have civil partnerships in the UK (I am in one). Just because it's a 'marriage in all but name' does not get rid of the problem that it is a marriage in all but name. Same-sex* couples deserve access to the institution of marriage if they (we) want it.

My wife and I are so excited about getting our 'upgrade' to marriage that we're going to have one hell of a party when we do.

*I dislike this term, and all its implications, but it's the legal phrase currently being used in Parliament and in the Act that's being passed on this subject. The law began with a positive name, as the 'Equal Marriage Act', and then people protested. Meh.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 03:11:49 am by Naomi J »
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
- Doctor Who

Chabas

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 656
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wondering About Same-Sex Marriage in Illinois
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2013, 04:33:47 am »
Quote from: Materialist;115092
Pardon me if this doesn't come out right, my brain is hurting from trying to figure out the statutes.

Okay, the civil union act and the marriage act are identical save in two ways: the civil union act has the word "civil union" wherever the marriage act has the word "marriage" in it, and the legal age for civil union is 18, while that for marriage is 16.

So, same-sex marriage would already exist if civil unions were simply legally labeled that way. What is the point of making the distinction between a civil union and a marriage if they confer the same benefits?


Well, to make the explicit point that this cannot possibly be a *real* marriage of course, thus keeping the concept of marriage clean for all of us "real", heterosexual couples. It's a propaganda thing.

Quote
The marriage law defines a legal marriage as one between persons of the opposite sex, so, why is there a constitutional amendment in the wings that would define marriage in that way  when it already is? If conservatives want to prohibit same-sex marriage then they need to re-illegalize civil unions.


Because constitutions are harder to change - even with the needed super majorities, it generally takes years - so they can keep the nasty defilers of marriage out longer on a technicality.

--Chabas

Chabas

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 656
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wondering About Same-Sex Marriage in Illinois
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2013, 04:37:16 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;115104

*I dislike this term, and all its implications, but it's the legal phrase currently being used in Parliament and in the Act that's being passed on this subject. The law began with a positive name, as the 'Equal Marriage Act', and then people protested. Meh.


What term would you prefer? While I'd be fine with just calling marriage marriage regardless of sex and gender of the participants, as long as we're still having to argue for marriage equality, the discussions involved will require some sort of terminology for... yeah. Whatever you want to refer to the distinction as. Maybe "bigot accepted" vs "bigot unaccepted"? Though that actually makes me want to call off my wedding just to piss the bigots off. ;)

--Chabas

Sophia C

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Location: London, UK
  • *
  • Posts: 1970
  • Country: gb
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
    • http://leithincluan.wordpress.com/
  • Religion: Gaelic-tinged polytheism, quite attached to Cailleach Bhearra, Narnian heretic, some Christian stuff
  • Preferred Pronouns: They/them
Re: Wondering About Same-Sex Marriage in Illinois
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2013, 04:54:09 am »
Quote from: Chabas;115108
What term would you prefer? While I'd be fine with just calling marriage marriage regardless of sex and gender of the participants, as long as we're still having to argue for marriage equality, the discussions involved will require some sort of terminology for... yeah. Whatever you want to refer to the distinction as. Maybe "bigot accepted" vs "bigot unaccepted"? Though that actually makes me want to call off my wedding just to piss the bigots off. ;)

--Chabas

 
I like the term 'equal marriage'. It says what the issue is actually about (in my opinion), rather than pretending that we're demanding special rights. This is about equality.
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
- Doctor Who

Chabas

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 656
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wondering About Same-Sex Marriage in Illinois
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2013, 05:03:13 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;115109
I like the term 'equal marriage'. It says what the issue is actually about (in my opinion), rather than pretending that we're demanding special rights. This is about equality.

 
Oh, as a name for the entire concept, I totally agree. Just not sure when term to use when I'm trying to distinguish between "marriage that is currently allowed, between people of different genders" and "marriage that is not currently allowed, between people of the same gender". I absolutely agree that one shouldn't have to make the distinction, but as long as we're having to argue with people about this, there's a practical need to do so.

--Chabas

Sophia C

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Location: London, UK
  • *
  • Posts: 1970
  • Country: gb
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
    • http://leithincluan.wordpress.com/
  • Religion: Gaelic-tinged polytheism, quite attached to Cailleach Bhearra, Narnian heretic, some Christian stuff
  • Preferred Pronouns: They/them
Re: Wondering About Same-Sex Marriage in Illinois
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2013, 05:09:01 am »
Quote from: Chabas;115110
Oh, as a name for the entire concept, I totally agree. Just not sure when term to use when I'm trying to distinguish between "marriage that is currently allowed, between people of different genders" and "marriage that is not currently allowed, between people of the same gender". I absolutely agree that one shouldn't have to make the distinction, but as long as we're having to argue with people about this, there's a practical need to do so.

--Chabas

 
In which case, I rather like your 'bigot accepted' vs 'bigot unaccepted' terminology... :D:
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
- Doctor Who

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4854
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 734
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; CoX; Etc.
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, she, they
Re: Wondering About Same-Sex Marriage in Illinois
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2013, 09:01:23 am »
Quote from: Materialist;115092
So, same-sex marriage would already exist if civil unions were simply legally labeled that way. What is the point of making the distinction between a civil union and a marriage if they confer the same benefits?


To make sure that same-sex couples are quite clear that they're not good enough to just participate in the same basic human institution as everyone else.

"Civil union" means "We made this thing up because we can't stand treating you like people".
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Materialist

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 605
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Wondering About Same-Sex Marriage in Illinois
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 10:48:24 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;115118
To make sure that same-sex couples are quite clear that they're not good enough to just participate in the same basic human institution as everyone else.


Well, dang, that's messed up. Whenever that amendment I mentioned is up for the vote I'll be sure to tell the senate where to stick it.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
25 Replies
3349 Views
Last post August 22, 2014, 07:00:05 pm
by Castus
3 Replies
383 Views
Last post March 29, 2014, 06:25:29 pm
by RandallS
0 Replies
668 Views
Last post August 22, 2014, 12:34:50 am
by Nyktipolos
121 Replies
6984 Views
Last post October 22, 2014, 12:39:42 pm
by Skyth
0 Replies
743 Views
Last post November 06, 2014, 05:54:06 pm
by Altair

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 27
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 2
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall