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Author Topic: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed  (Read 1315 times)

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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2020, 09:57:59 am »
Wrong... I don’t use Reddit as a source for anything. Keep looking.

I dare say the burden is on you to give your sources.

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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2020, 10:23:04 am »
Wrong... I don’t use Reddit as a source for anything. Keep looking.

Actually, you did use Reddit as a source whether you were aware of it at the time or not.

There is a minor typo in that screed, making it traceable through time to its origin point. And the very earliest posting, the Patient Zero if you will, is that doofus on Reddit.

So yeah.
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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2020, 05:47:02 pm »

On  March 9, 2020 Bernie Sanders said he would NOT, I repeat he said he  would NOT shut down travel from March 20, MSNBC's Rachel Maddow (as well  as NY Times) bash Trump for talking about Hydroxy Cloroquin calling it a  "fairy tale" and giving people false hope. Now it is being sought after  to fight the disease and is being tested as helping patients recover  faster.

Just honing in on this fun bit of plagiary to point out how HCQ made up absolutely zero percent of POUTS' treatment plan.

Although it's possible he had a demonsperm cocktail, and mayhap even a bright UV beam aimed at his dusty orange asshole.

Or not.
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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2020, 06:49:54 pm »
Wrong... I don’t use Reddit as a source for anything. Keep looking.

<Host Hat ON>

A Reminder:
No, Jainarayan, it's not our job (either Cauldronites generally, or staff) to track down your sources. It's your job (as Sir Palidomides notes) to provide sources when requested - and such a request was made, by Anon101 in the very first response to your post. If you choose not to do so, or your sources aren't acceptably reliable, don't expect people to find them - or you - convincing. (See our Political Discussion Guidelines and our Community Rules, item 13 in the DO rules, for more on sources and how they are taken in discussion.)


<Host Hat OFF>

Speaking for myself, I'm less interested in where you got the italicized-in-your-post text as a whole, than in sources for the specific claims made therein. Anyone can put words in a politician's mouth; can you demonstrate that the politicians, policymakers, pundits, etc to whom the various quotes are attributed actually said those things? (I'm not making a claim that any of them are fake, merely noting that there is no way to tell if they're real, pulled out of context, or invented - nor am I expecting you to have sources for each individual quote ready to hand, since you clearly simply copypasted a writeup that's making rounds.)

That's a side issue, though. What strikes me as most to the point is that it doesn't really demonstrate anything, and certainly doesn't rebut the 'casually dismissed' in the thread title. Even taking the quotes at face value, all it shows is that a) Trump spoke of something (that it was COVID-19 is implied, not stated) as being a “humanitarian and security crisis" in January (saying it in a speech may be declaring it in the lay sense; it's not the same as declaring it in a political sense), though he didn't take any action beyond speechifying, and b) organizations, and people other than Trump, have been wrong about COVID-19, and some have said things about it that (in retrospect, if not at the time) were foolish.

That Trump said the words 'humanitarian and security crisis' in January does not give him a free pass on casual dismissiveness since then - ISTM that his dismissiveness about mask-wearing alone is sufficient to justify the use of 'casually dismissed' in the thread title.

Nor does, 'But other people were wrong, too!' let him off any hooks.

BUT - I question strongly whether we can take those quotes at face value. I'll deal with just one example:

Jan  14 - the WHO (World Health Organization) sent out a tweet declaring  that there is no evidence of human-to-human transmission of the COVID-19  virus.

Here's the actual tweet itself. Note just how much context was omitted from the timeline you posted.

'Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China🇨🇳.' (Emphases mine.)

On the same day, WHO also gave a news briefing, much more nuanced and detailed than can be contained in a 240-character tweet (though I imagine they also tweeted about and linked to the briefing). A key quote: '“From the information that we have it is possible that there is limited human-to-human transmission, potentially among families, but it is very clear right now that we have no sustained human-to-human transmission,” said Maria Van Kerkhove, acting head of WHO’s emerging diseases unit.'

Without any sourcing, there is no way to determine whether the other quotes similarly misrepresent what the person quoted actually said, but given the misrepresentation of WHO's position, it's reasonable to suppose that at least some, if not all, of the others, were similarly treated.

(More on the 'Trump said, WHO said' misrepresentation issue here (archived) or here (original). I found it almost by accident in the 'History' section of Wikipedia's article on 'Coronavirus disease 2019', while checking on when the first cases in North America were diagnosed - so, not at all hard to track down.)

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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2020, 08:05:55 pm »
Seriously? Casually dismissed? Plague? With a recovery rate of well >99%, and a US death toll of .06%?

'Plague', of course, is a colloquialism, but one in common use.

It seems, though, that the US death rate may be underestimated (first link to NBC News item on the study, second to the study itself). Also, tweet-thread:

Then there's the lack of nuance in the 'recovered, or dead?' binary; it elides the emerging evidence of long-term effects of COVID - what's coming to be referred to as 'Long COVID'.

Bottom line, this is not just 'this year's flu'; it's something we don't yet know a lot about (so, yes, people will say things that later turn out to be nonsense), but that we have evidence that it needs to be taken more seriously than Trump takes it. There's 'trying to avoid causing panic', and there's 'treating it lightly'; Trump might be trying to do the former, but his words and deeds amount to the latter.

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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2020, 02:11:53 pm »
'Plague', of course, is a colloquialism

Also, one which has been used by POUTS.
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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2020, 11:08:11 pm »
a US death toll of .06%

This has been briefly touched on earlier in this thread but I would just like to put the reminder out there that the United States has a population of roughly 330 million people. Mocking the virus for its meager death toll of "less than a single percentage point" in a country that has such a population is absolutely horrifying when you take into account that this supposedly tiny and insignificant "0.06%" actually would add up to ALMOST TWENTY MILLION PEOPLE HOLY SHIT if we just casually let it rage through the populace the way Trump has repeatedly proposed?

I did the math TWICE to be sure I had it right.

Are you really comfortable dismissing an "outbreak" that kills 0.06% of those infected in the United States?

That sounds like a damn plague to me.
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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2020, 12:26:26 am »


Are you really comfortable dismissing an "outbreak" that kills 0.06% of those infected in the United States?

That sounds like a damn plague to me.

You'd better take a look at the statistics for Japan.

Japan never locked down. At all.

Japan never social distanced. At all.

While some people voluntarily wore masks, there was never a mask mandate. There is no legal authority under Japanese law to do so, and unlike this country over there the law means something.

Japan has recorded 1,694 deaths in a population of 126 million...far less than the seasonal flu.

Think that means that the virus never took hold there? Think again. A team of doctors has been taking tests on healthy volunteers, and found that the rate of seropositivity has increased from 5.8% to 46.8% over the course of the summer.

So the virus has been transmitted and retransmitted over there...but it's (almost) all asymptomatic...in other words, people catch it but they don't get "sick". Over here, though, our mandates and lockdowns have just dragged the process out and ensured that those people who do catch it wind up with the more virulent strains.

Want to know who's killing these people in the U.S.? If you're wearing a mask...look in the mirror.
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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2020, 12:30:23 am »
You'd better take a look at the statistics for Japan.

Japan never locked down. At all.

Japan never social distanced. At all.

While some people voluntarily wore masks, there was never a mask mandate. There is no legal authority under Japanese law to do so, and unlike this country over there the law means something.

Wearing masks when sick or potentially sick is a firmly established norm of East Asian culture, known for its widespread adherence to societal norms. "Some people voluntarily wore masks" means that the vast majority of the population, in fact, wore masks.

More and more scientific evidence suggests that near-universal early mask-wearing would have staved off our current and continuing death toll, as it did in Japan.
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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2020, 12:35:11 am »
Wearing masks when sick or potentially sick is a firmly established norm of East Asian culture, known for its widespread adherence to societal norms. "Some people voluntarily wore masks" means that the vast majority of the population, in fact, wore masks.

More and more scientific evidence suggests that near-universal early mask-wearing would have staved off our current and continuing death toll, as it did in Japan.

There's also a pretty fair likelihood that Shinto belief in cleanliness ( e.g. hand washing and regular disinfection of surfaces) as a religious duty may have played a role, as it is thought to have done with bubonic plague in Japan also.

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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2020, 12:51:27 am »
There's also a pretty fair likelihood that Shinto belief in cleanliness ( e.g. hand washing and regular disinfection of surfaces) as a religious duty may have played a role, as it is thought to have done with bubonic plague in Japan also.

This is very true, since from the early days of this virus outbreak it has been known that the virus is expressed in feces and many of the documented transmissions (such as between apartments on a common sewer line, without western-style traps, with occupants who did not know/never met each other) could only have taken place by fecal-oral means...which is information which has been actively suppressed in this country. Were it not, it would mean that those health care workers in nursing homes tending to the incontinent with just a spritz of hand sanitizer between patients were murderers, not heroes.
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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2020, 05:49:07 am »
Wearing masks when sick or potentially sick is a firmly established norm of East Asian culture, known for its widespread adherence to societal norms. "Some people voluntarily wore masks" means that the vast majority of the population, in fact, wore masks.

More and more scientific evidence suggests that near-universal early mask-wearing would have staved off our current and continuing death toll, as it did in Japan.

"...when sick or potentially sick..."

"...near-universal early mask-wearing..."

Okay, which is it? "When sick" or "universal"? Healthy people in Japan don't wear masks. A good estimate is that perhaps ten percent of the population wears masks. That's a long way from "universal". And the efficacy of even that mask-wearing is HIGHLY questionable. Source: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9566.2012.01466.x

Look, when you have a highly transmissible bug but one which is asymptomatic in a segment of the population...such as young, healthy people...you WANT them to get it, as quickly as possible! Every asymptomatic case REMOVES that person from the pool of those who can get it and place a burden on the health care system! By locking down, closing bars and restaurants where these young and healthy people would otherwise mix and mingle, we have shifted the spectrum of this virus to those who ARE vulnerable to it...and the body count we're seeing is the natural result.
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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2020, 05:55:36 am »
"...when sick or potentially sick..."

"...near-universal early mask-wearing..."

Okay, which is it? "When sick" or "universal"? Healthy people in Japan don't wear masks. A good estimate is that perhaps ten percent of the population wears masks. That's a long way from "universal". And the efficacy of even that mask-wearing is HIGHLY questionable. Source: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9566.2012.01466.x

Look, when you have a highly transmissible bug but one which is asymptomatic in a segment of the population...such as young, healthy people...you WANT them to get it, as quickly as possible! Every asymptomatic case REMOVES that person from the pool of those who can get it and place a burden on the health care system! By locking down, closing bars and restaurants where these young and healthy people would otherwise mix and mingle, we have shifted the spectrum of this virus to those who ARE vulnerable to it...and the body count we're seeing is the natural result.


Yeah, no. Sweden tried that approach.

They have a pile of bodies and serious economic hardship to show for it. I'm not sure how many shops near the Norwegian border will have closed by the time the borders are opened again; the layoff have been brutal.
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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2020, 06:07:29 am »

Yeah, no. Sweden tried that approach.

They have a pile of bodies and serious economic hardship to show for it. I'm not sure how many shops near the Norwegian border will have closed by the time the borders are opened again; the layoff have been brutal.

Over 45% of the COVID-attributed deaths in Sweden have been in that tiny percentage of the population in nursing homes. If you're in a nursing home, you are 20X more likely to have a fatal case/outcome than someone in the exact same age group outside of a nursing home. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7369443/.

Again, Sweden did a poor job of protecting their nursing home population. So did we. The governor of New York who ordered nursing homes to accept COVID positive patients should be tried for mass murder. But that segment of the population aside, Sweden has done much better overall than we have...and with no lockdowns.
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Re: Wannabe dictator struck with plague he casually dismissed
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2020, 06:34:47 am »
Over 45% of the COVID-attributed deaths in Sweden have been in that tiny percentage of the population in nursing homes. If you're in a nursing home, you are 20X more likely to have a fatal case/outcome than someone in the exact same age group outside of a nursing home. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7369443/.

The first two sentences of your source: Upwards of 70% of the Covid19 death toll in Sweden has been people in elderly care services (as of mid-May 2020). We summarize the Covid19 tragedy in elderly care in Sweden, particularly in the City of Stockholm.

The data wasn't even out of its diapers at that point. It's the end of October now. Also, they're right next door...we read their news. They're finally discussing the more holistic Excess Mortality numbers, which were shocking enough that the central government has at long last empowered local governments to conduct simplified lockdowns.

And guess what? Their case numbers are FINALLY leveling out. Fancy that, it's almost like lockdowns work.


Quote
Again, Sweden did a poor job of protecting their nursing home population. So did we. The governor of New York who ordered nursing homes to accept COVID positive patients should be tried for mass murder. But that segment of the population aside, Sweden has done much better overall than we have...and with no lockdowns.

Ah, an award for Best Sewage Cesspit Freedive. You're still all covered in shit, no matter how well you did.
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