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Author Topic: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2  (Read 4244 times)

Altair

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U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« on: March 26, 2013, 02:11:10 pm »
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/27/us/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-case.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&hp

Thoughts? Mine are--

--Astonishment at how rapidly the landscape has shifted in marriage equality's favor

--A guess that SCOTUS will deny standing to Prop 8 supporters, so that the court doesn't yet have to deal with the broader question of whether gays and lesbians have a right to same-sex marriage. Which is still a win for gay folks, because then same-sex marriage becomes legal in another state--California, the most populous in the nation
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 02:13:23 pm by Altair »
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
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Lokabrenna

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2013, 02:26:18 pm »
Quote from: Altair;103001
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/27/us/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-case.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&hp

Thoughts? Mine are--

--Astonishment at how rapidly the landscape has shifted in marriage equality's favor

--A guess that SCOTUS will deny standing to Prop 8 supporters, so that the court doesn't yet have to deal with the broader question of whether gays and lesbians have a right to same-sex marriage. Which is still a win for gay folks, because then same-sex marriage becomes legal in another state--California, the most populous in the nation


I've been following the news and it looks like everyone's saying that SCOTUS will rule that proponents "lack standing" which is apparently a good thing, but not quite a full victory.

I've been reading the transcripts and enjoying watching the bigots squirm on this one. They just keep using the same old talking points over and over.

MadZealot

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2013, 02:59:00 pm »
Quote from: Altair;103001
A guess that SCOTUS will deny standing to Prop 8 supporters, so that the court doesn't yet have to deal with the broader question of whether gays and lesbians have a right to same-sex marriage. Which is still a win for gay folks, because then same-sex marriage becomes legal in another state--California, the most populous in the nation


I see this as most likely and probably the best option.  

And, with that, here's a pretty graphic.  

Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

Altair

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2013, 03:01:22 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;103002

I've been reading the transcripts and enjoying watching the bigots squirm on this one. They just keep using the same old talking points over and over.


Do you have a link to the transcripts? I'd like to peruse them, and I'll wager a few other Cauldronites would like to, too.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
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Lokabrenna

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2013, 03:14:07 pm »
Quote from: Altair;103007
Do you have a link to the transcripts? I'd like to peruse them, and I'll wager a few other Cauldronites would like to, too.

 
I found it here: http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/12-144a.pdf

SCOTUSblog on twitter also released this one: http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/perry.transcript.pdf

Here's a link to the audio version: http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_audio_detail.aspx?argument=12-144

and here's a recap in "plain English": http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/03/what-will-the-court-do-with-proposition-8-todays-oral-argument-in-plain-english/

My understanding is that they haven't actually made a decision yet, though.

Altair

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2013, 03:22:10 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;103009
I found it here: http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/12-144a.pdf

SCOTUSblog on twitter also released this one: http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/perry.transcript.pdf

Here's a link to the audio version: http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_audio_detail.aspx?argument=12-144

and here's a recap in "plain English": http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/03/what-will-the-court-do-with-proposition-8-todays-oral-argument-in-plain-english/

My understanding is that they haven't actually made a decision yet, though.


Thorough linkage. Thanks!

A decision isn't expected until June...which is why my husband and I are filing for an extension on our tax returns. If DOMA (SCOTUS Tackles SSM, Day 2 of 2--tomorrow) gets struck down in June, it will make a big difference on our 2012 taxes, the first full year we were married.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Altair

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2013, 03:23:13 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;103006
I see this as most likely and probably the best option.  



"Best" in what way?
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MadZealot

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2013, 04:41:25 pm »
Quote from: Altair;103012
"Best" in what way?

Well, one thing we DON'T want is an all-or-nothing decision from the Supremes.  Not even sure if that can happen if all they're looking at is CA Prop 8, but if so...  they could vote the right way and we all throw a huge fucking party.  Vote the wrong way and it's a whole lotta loss.  Better to keep fighting it in the States, where you've been winning, than to lose in one unilateral ruling.
Marriage equality should be a no-brainer, you'd think.  Look at the Constitution and you'll find no real argument for anything otherwise.  But the Supremes can get things wrong, which makes them about as predictable as a drunken two-headed puppy.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 04:42:45 pm by MadZealot »
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

Altair

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2013, 04:52:51 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;103015
Well, one thing we DON'T want is an all-or-nothing decision from the Supremes.  Not even sure if that can happen if all they're looking at is CA Prop 8, but if so...  they could vote the right way and we all throw a huge fucking party.  Vote the wrong way and it's a whole lotta loss.  Better to keep fighting it in the States, where you've been winning, than to lose in one unilateral ruling.
Marriage equality should be a no-brainer, you'd think.  Look at the Constitution and you'll find no real argument for anything otherwise.  But the Supremes can get things wrong, which makes them about as predictable as a drunken two-headed puppy.

 
Part of me agrees it's better in the long run to fight it out in the states (though perhaps for different reasons than you have); part of me firmly believes that justice delayed is justice denied, and when you have elderly gay couples who have been effectively married for 50+ years, they simply may not have the luxury of waiting.

There's also a limit on how far we can get state by state. Progress has been unbelievably rapid, but the states we keep winning are ripe for us anyway; progress will hit a wall in the Bible Belt, esp. in states that passed a constitutional amendment banning SSM, which will be much harder to reverse than a mere law. So there is reason that we may want the Supremes to step in, even if not at this moment.

One bright spot: If, as I expect (hope!), SCOTUS invalidates DOMA section 3, and the Federal gov't therefore recognizes the SSMs performed in states that have legalized it, that puts powerful economic pressure on the states that haven't legalized it to do so. Top gay talent, and corporations that want to lure that top talent, will flee states that treat so many of their best and brightest as second-class citizens.
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Altair

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2013, 05:06:48 pm »
Quote from: Altair;103001

--Astonishment at how rapidly the landscape has shifted in marriage equality's favor


A further note on how astonishing the momentum has become: In the last 2 days, in the wake of Hilary Clinton and U.S. Senator Rob Portman of (R-Ohio), no less than FIVE U.S. senators have come out publically for the first time in favor of marriage equality: Claire McCaskill (Missouri), Mark Warner (Virginia), Mark Begich (Alaska [!]), Jay Rockefeller (West Virginia [!!]), and Jon Tester (Montana [!?!])--all Democrats.

The next time somebody suggests my fundamental civil right to marriage equality should be put on the ballot as a popularity contest, I'm going to go all Babylon 5 on them and quote the Vorlons: "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."

(OK, I wouldn't really say that. I just wanted to shoehorn that in.)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 05:07:14 pm by Altair »
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
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Skyth

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2013, 05:10:28 pm »
Quote from: Altair;103020
One bright spot: If, as I expect (hope!), SCOTUS invalidates DOMA section 3, and the Federal gov't therefore recognizes the SSMs performed in states that have legalized it, that puts powerful economic pressure on the states that haven't legalized it to do so. Top gay talent, and corporations that want to lure that top talent, will flee states that treat so many of their best and brightest as second-class citizens.


One thing about it is the (I believe it is called) 'Full Faith and Credit' part of the Constitution.  Basically, it boils down to if you're married in one state, you're married in all the states.  This would apply to all states, so that if you're married, but move to a state that disallows that marriage...The state still has to consider you married.  

Unless there's a loophole that I'm not aware of.

Altair

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2013, 05:21:59 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;103025
One thing about it is the (I believe it is called) 'Full Faith and Credit' part of the Constitution.  Basically, it boils down to if you're married in one state, you're married in all the states.  This would apply to all states, so that if you're married, but move to a state that disallows that marriage...The state still has to consider you married.  

Unless there's a loophole that I'm not aware of.


I believe there is a loophole, but I'm not sure; in fact, I don't think anybody's sure. And the present DOMA case before SCOTUS won't resolve that question, because it only challenges Section 3 of DOMA very specifically--the part that says the Federal government won't recognize the marriages--*not* the part that says that other states don't have to recognize SSMs performed elsewhere.
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The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
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Dark Waters

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2013, 10:05:03 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;103025
One thing about it is the (I believe it is called) 'Full Faith and Credit' part of the Constitution.  Basically, it boils down to if you're married in one state, you're married in all the states.  This would apply to all states, so that if you're married, but move to a state that disallows that marriage...The state still has to consider you married.  

Unless there's a loophole that I'm not aware of.


You are talking about Article 4 of the Constitution (Link to transcript of Constitution). Section 1 states:

Quote
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.


However with the second part, it allows Congress to limit it such as it did with DOMA.


I think the more important part is Section 2:

Quote
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.


With all the talk of Civil Unions - and CA where Prop 8 is from has a CU provision - in CA there are 9 major legal differences between a Marriage and a Civil Union each to the detriment of the CU partner. Plus CUs are not recognized federally. So if for no other reason than Article 4, Section 2 - any laws preventing same sex marriages should be struck down.

In my view any consenting legal adults should be allowed to marry. Period.
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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2013, 02:07:27 am »
Quote from: Altair;103024
The next time somebody suggests my fundamental civil right to marriage equality should be put on the ballot as a popularity contest, I'm going to go all Babylon 5 on them and quote the Vorlons: "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."

(OK, I wouldn't really say that. I just wanted to shoehorn that in.)

 
There is never a bad time for a Babylon 5 quote, and that's a particularly good one.

I'd love not to have to figure out how to do state-required community property on two separate "single" federal returns next year, so fingers crossed.
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MadZealot

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Tackles Same-Sex Marriage, Day 1 of 2
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2013, 02:21:48 am »
Quote from: Altair;103024
(OK, I wouldn't really say that. I just wanted to shoehorn that in.)


I think you probably would, and I'd pay good money to see the expression of the person on the receiving end.
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