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Author Topic: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!  (Read 6205 times)

Queen of Swords

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2016, 01:01:21 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;197295
Yeah, I'm aware of all that.  I also drew the line at joking about sexual assault.

 
My point is that Trump wasn't "just" talking, he was describing the predatory behavior that he actually engaged in.

Yei

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2016, 01:23:39 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;197292
I think there's a line here.  Castus is right, to a point; men do engage in a lot of 'locker-room talk', and much of it's vulgar.  

 
Do they though? Maybe it's an American cultural thing, as I don't really remember encountering anything like this. Admittedly, most of the time I am remembering changing for school P.E. classes, but even outside of that I have never encountered anything with that combination of vulgarity and criminality. At least that I remember.

Perhaps Australian locker room discourse is just more sophisticated.

MadZealot

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2016, 09:23:53 am »
Quote from: Yei;197302
Perhaps Australian locker room discourse is just more sophisticated.

That's a possibility.  I grew up in a mixed-race working class area where most everyone were (like me) some shade of brown.  When it came to sexual exploits, girls were "bitches" and "cunts," and phrases like "I fucked the shit out that bitch" were commonplace.  In junior high and high school that was the usual boy-language, but by the time they'd made it to college, they seemed to have learned some discretion.  I'd be interested in seeing how (and why) Aussie boys dodged the vulgar phase.)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 09:25:47 am by MadZealot »
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

MadZealot

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2016, 09:33:19 am »
Quote from: Queen of Swords;197300
My point is that Trump wasn't "just" talking, he was describing the predatory behavior that he actually engaged in.

I get that, but I'm reluctant to give credence to allegations until they're fully proven (and so far as I know, they haven't been.)  It's alleged behaviour unless charges lead to a conviction.  Until then, the accusations are as real as what Juanita Broaddrick said about BJ.  

My earlier point was that "just" talking doesn't cover (or excuse) rape jokes.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 09:34:02 am by MadZealot »
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

MadZealot

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2016, 09:41:42 am »
Quote from: Altair;197290
Clinton wins again, though not by the blowout margin of round 1.

 
 In the first debate I saw 2 adults trying to out-piss each other.  

This time I saw a more composed & confident Hillary.  If this were a boxing match I'd say she landed several solid hits.  

Trump, otoh, stalked the stage like an oversized churlish 6 year-old, and failed to put together reasonable sentences.  It looked a lot like the pressure was hitting him and maybe he was unravelling a little.

Gotta say, I think she edged out a pretty good win, and I'm not a fan of hers.  (And definitely not one of his.)

I do wish we could've gotten less personal-jab time and more talk about real issues, though.  But there's always next Weds.
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2016, 09:53:54 am »
Quote from: Yei;197302
Do they though? Maybe it's an American cultural thing, as I don't really remember encountering anything like this. Admittedly, most of the time I am remembering changing for school P.E. classes, but even outside of that I have never encountered anything with that combination of vulgarity and criminality. At least that I remember.

Perhaps Australian locker room discourse is just more sophisticated.

 
I strongly suspect that it's far more class and subculture than nation-based, like MadZ suggested.

I mean, one of the comments I saw on the topic was http://[tweet]785332837381570560[/tweet] and Bendis is American.

(Most of the other comments I saw were about the acceptability of using the hot air blowers to try one's testicles, and the difference in acceptibility between naked poses like Riker with his foot up on someone's chair in the Enterprise and naked poses like Captain Morgan.)

Now I'm wondering is the reason Trump is getting flak for this is because his expressions of criminal-action misogyny were not appropriate to his social class.  That makes me very depressed.

It does explain why this has legs and the underaged rape accusation does not, though.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Queen of Swords

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2016, 01:21:35 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;197316
My earlier point was that "just" talking doesn't cover (or excuse) rape jokes.

 
Fair enough. We have a fundemental disagreement about how we treat accusations, so there isn't any more discussion to be had on that front.

MadZealot

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2016, 04:39:07 pm »
Quote from: Queen of Swords;197327
Fair enough. We have a fundemental disagreement about how we treat accusations, so there isn't any more discussion to be had on that front.


Well, I treat them as accusations.  That does not mean I believe them automatically or dismiss them as lies.  I'm a big believer in due process.  Were I the accused, I'd certainly want my presumption of innocence and fair trial.
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

Yei

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2016, 05:24:59 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;197321
I strongly suspect that it's far more class and subculture than nation-based, like MadZ suggested.

I mean, one of the comments I saw on the topic was http://[tweet]785332837381570560[/tweet] and Bendis is American.

Yeah, maybe. Recently in Australia it was discovered that male students in a prestigious Sydney High School were taking pictures of girls and 'rating' them online. And there have been a few other incidents like it in the region, extending to a prominent Sydney university. I can't quite remember the details, but students were taking explicit pictures of women and posting them online without their consent, or something similar. Actually, I'm probably confusing several incidents, but you get the picture. Of course, this happened on the internet and not in a locker room.

All the students involved came from wealthy families and were the local equivalent of the 'upper class'. My own school was essentially middle class, so maybe that's the difference. Then again, I don't hear this type of talk in the locker rooms at the Kendo club, so maybe the problem is privilege.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 05:25:36 pm by Yei »

Queen of Swords

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2016, 05:53:10 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;197342
Well, I treat them as accusations.  That does not mean I believe them automatically or dismiss them as lies.  I'm a big believer in due process.  Were I the accused, I'd certainly want my presumption of innocence and fair trial.

 
That's perfectly reasonable, IMO, when talking about punishing someone. For me, when trying to assess a person's character, accusations have a certain weight. Multiple accusations have more weight. The accused makes public statements about things they've done that line up with the accusations? More weight. When I take everything that Trump has said about his dealings with women overs the years, and all of the accusations, and the striking similarities they all have to what he described doing on that tape.. it creates a picture of a certain kind of person.

I'm not advocating that he should be punished, I'm saying that he's shown me the kind of man that he is.

Skyth

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2016, 09:29:33 pm »
Quote from: Queen of Swords;197345
That's perfectly reasonable, IMO, when talking about punishing someone. For me, when trying to assess a person's character, accusations have a certain weight. Multiple accusations have more weight. The accused makes public statements about things they've done that line up with the accusations? More weight. When I take everything that Trump has said about his dealings with women overs the years, and all of the accusations, and the striking similarities they all have to what he described doing on that tape.. it creates a picture of a certain kind of person.

I'm not advocating that he should be punished, I'm saying that he's shown me the kind of man that he is.

 
While Trump has shown what sort of person he is, the problem is the constant witch hunts over the last 25 years towards Clinton make people believe that she is 'as bad as Trump' even though they never find anything even after extensive investigation,

MamaThistle

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2016, 10:08:19 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;197321
I strongly suspect that it's far more class and subculture than nation-based, like MadZ suggested.

 
I agree. I've know some pretty vulgar Australian men, who happened to be lower class.
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MamaThistle

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2016, 10:20:03 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;197321

Now I'm wondering is the reason Trump is getting flak for this is because his expressions of criminal-action misogyny were not appropriate to his social class.  That makes me very depressed.

It does explain why this has legs and the underaged rape accusation does not, though.

 
Scary thought, could be.

I saw a couple men on Twitter defending Trump and actually blaming women because we are all attracted to sexually aggressive men. He was just giving us what *we* want. :eek:
"Think like a wise man but communicate in the language of the people."

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Queen of Swords

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2016, 10:53:31 pm »
Quote from: Skyth;197350
While Trump has shown what sort of person he is, the problem is the constant witch hunts over the last 25 years towards Clinton make people believe that she is 'as bad as Trump' even though they never find anything even after extensive investigation,

 
By "the problem is" do you mean the problem with the election, my line of thinking, or something else?

Some people genuinely believe that by sticking by Bill, Hillary is just as bad as he is. I don't agree with that line of thinking personally. But it's true that other people are judging her based on unverified rumors and flat out lies.

I'm not sure that anyone actually cares about my line of thinking here, LOL, but I might as well clarify that I'm not talking about forming a "forever opinion." If, for example, all of Trump's accusers were revealed to frauds tomorrow I would have a slightly different opinion of him. Nor am I saying that anyone should agree with me, necessarily. I just disagree a little with MadZealot (I think) and that's okay!

MadZealot

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Re: The Second Debate: Pussygate Galore!
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2016, 12:07:49 am »
Quote from: Queen of Swords;197355
I just disagree a little with MadZealot (I think) and that's okay!

Naaah.  We were just approaching it differently.  I was thinking more court-of-law, you were thinking more court-of-opinion.

Quote
Some people genuinely believe that by sticking by Bill, Hillary is just as bad as he is. I don't agree with that line of thinking personally.

Well, there might be something to this.  If we can gather enough allegations that we get, as you say it, a 'picture of a certain kind of person', we get a portrait of Bill as a one-man war on women.  Likewise, with the stories we have of Hillary attacking the women behind the various we see a certain kind of person there too.  One comment I've seen describes her as a 'long term enabler of a serial sexual predator.'  That's pretty harsh, but if, as you say, multiple accusations really do have more weight, well... it's pretty damning.  

Also, apparently, not every victim has "the right to be believed," which must explain why that line in quotes vanished from her website.  Interesting, no?

The damnably funny thing is Trump's rabid fans really won't give a shit how horrid a person he is.  They'll make excuses for him or just outright ignore the truth.  And Hillary's fans try to ignore or talk right past her baggage as well.  Our hyper-partisanship makes us blind hypocrites.  And we really don't like it when someone tips over our sacred cows.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 12:08:26 am by MadZealot »
Spider Man 3 never happened. And Epstein didn't kill himself.

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